Parenting When You’re Exhausted, Create Your Family Support Team with Katie Kimball, CSME

Parenting When You’re Exhausted, Create Your Family Support Team with Katie Kimball, CSME

00:00

Hey everybody, welcome back to the EnergyMD Podcast, where we help you resolve your long COVID and chronic fatigue syndromes naturally so that you can get back to live in your best life. So really excited about today's episode, cause we're going to be talking about how to create really a family system for cooking. Uh, especially when you are a parent who has fatigue. I know this firsthand when I had fatigue, um, what it took in order to be able to continue the function of our life and our family.

00:34

And we're going to be learning today from Katie Kimball. So let's learn a little bit about her. So Katie Kimball helps change kids' relationship to food, both through work in the kitchen and helping parents of picky eaters. She's a former teacher, two-time TEDx speaker, writer, and mom of four kids. She created the Kids Cook Real Food e-course, which was recommended by the Wall Street Journal as the best online cooking class for kids. Her blog.

01:03

kitchen stewardship, helps families stay healthy without going crazy. And she's on a mission to connect families around healthy food, teach every child to cook and instill those all important life skills with her life skills. Now summer camps, Katie, thanks so much for joining me today. Thank you too, Evan. I'm, I'm thrilled to get to share with your audience cause they are just in such need. think they're tired. They definitely are. They're tired and you know, they're struggling to

01:33

oftentimes make the logistics of home life work. It's kind of like they want to feed their kids well, but it's really hard when you are so tired to take care of some of the little stuff like standing for extended periods of time and helping people get the right food on the table. And so I'm really excited that you kind of, you have this concept of having like a uh family team to help life function, especially for these people who have fatigue. So you can eat

02:03

Tell me a little bit about what a family team looks like and why it's important. Well, when I think about your audience in particular, it's like the head, the family is a team, whether we like it or not. And when the head of the team is on the DL, when they're down and out, it makes it really, really hard. means the rest of the team have to be team players and pitch in. And so I think a lot of us here in America, we tend to run uh maybe more like a company where the CEO, the mom or the dad is doing all the work.

02:32

and everyone else is just sort of benefiting from it. Maybe they make their own beds, but I think a lot of kids aren't pitching in as much around the house. But when I think of a family team, it's just a beautiful structure where everyone feels like they have ownership. Everyone feels like they have shared responsibility, like they have contribution. And there are actually some beautiful benefits to kids' mental health when they get those gifts of contribution, responsibility, and ownership too.

03:01

Yeah, and I can definitely see that the challenge is going from like A to Z, right? Well, right now the kid is used to having everything kind of like done for them because sometimes it's just easier to do it instead of like trying to explain it and trying to teach the kid or the employee about the process that you have and like what you want the outcome to be. Right. So then how do you how do you go from A to Z so that you get these actualized?

03:30

kids and other family members who are stepping up. Yeah. mean, you said sometimes it's easier to do it yourself. It's almost always easier to do it yourself, especially. mean, if the child's young, then they're not going to be very proficient at it. So it's easier to do yourself. The child's older. They're probably going to have pushback and then that's just a pain in the pituitary too. So that's part of it is, and I know it's fatigue, mental fatigue comes with this too, but

03:57

but I think parents first hurdle to get over is convincing ourselves that it's worth it. Convincing ourselves that if we can take a little extra time, a little extra like, you know, I don't wanna say battling through it, it should never be a battle, but a little extra like dealing with the pushback and rolling through that and working with the child. It's so worth it on the other end, both for your time and for the kids. I mean, I'm at a place, I'm at Z pretty much.

04:27

My kids are ages 11 to 20 and I'm not saying life is perfect. Um, but there are three of them who are old enough to cook an entire meal per week on their own. And my husband takes one. So I have fewer than 50 % of the meals in a week that I even have to make. And like that's, that's the dream, you know, and especially for people who are having trouble standing up at the counter, like wouldn't that be amazing to delegate? But if you're at a, how do you get there? So step one is you have to get over the mental roadblock that it is too hard.

04:57

you know, because everything's hard. All of parenting is hard. But if we can slow down, if we can talk about what we're doing and pass on the skills first and then build that family team environment, that culture of a family where we say, you know, everyone eats, so everyone cleans up and everyone lives in this home. um So everyone needs to help. um We can really, I think, build ownership. one of the, one of the chore systems that we use in our house.

05:26

is that each, we have this like list in a sheet protector and each kid has to choose six chores per week. They can switch it up, they can get in their rut, it doesn't matter. They just have to be done by Sunday after lunch. So some of my kids might do like one per day after school. Most of them bunch them on Saturday morning. My 11 year old, my youngest, he always thinks tomorrow himself will be in a better mood. So he's like, I'm gonna do half of mine today.

05:56

church, that other guy, he'll do the other part, you know, because there aren't any, there aren't any consequences. There's no nagging. There's no reminding until it hits like Sunday after brunch. Then the rule is you don't get to recreate until your chores are done or reverse. You may recreate when your chores are done, right? Or your family contributions, family responsibilities. I know sometimes words really, really matter. My kids still realize their chores, even when we call them family contributions. So

06:24

of those words matter all that much to the children. um But the point is, is that they get to take ownership of those. They get to kind of time budget, which is a whole executive functioning skill in itself, thinking about and learning about like, how do I like to run my life? Do I like to chip away at it? Do I like to bunch them? And it's really been very interesting to watch my kids over 10 years, we've had the same system, to watch them like figure out their favorite. um

06:51

And it's nice for me because again, it's not nagging all the time. There's no need for parent-child interaction. Not that we don't interact, but there's no need for me to like be on them, so to speak, until that deadline. And then it's very simple. Like, oh, you would like to play on your tablet? Show me your list. You would like to go to a friend's house? Show me your list. And it's just like this very subjective passageway to play. That's really nice. And so,

07:20

Tell me a little bit more about this list. What was the name for it? It's just for us, it's just our weekly chore list, our family weekly chore list. And so the kids, em there's all the things that need to be done in a week. So bathroom mirrors are different than bathroom floors and then sweeping the kitchen, wiping kitchen cupboards. There's just, you know, every household's probably a little different on what they need to have done every month or every week. em But it's not your personal stuff. It's not making your bed. It's not cleaning your room. It's the family spaces.

07:49

And so it really shows that, and they can see mom and dad check stuff off too and put our little M and our little D, or my kids each have different initials. And so that's how we do it is you check it off when you do it and you put your initial in there. And then we're all visibly working together to make, keep the house in order and keep each other sane. Nice. And so this would be the kind of thing if somebody was creating this from scratch.

08:15

where they would just document what they're doing on a weekly basis in order to keep the house clean. Right. Yeah. The first step would be what needs to be done. And then, and then of course there's the logistics. So there's always the system of how do we, how do we decide who does what? And that's kind of what I just described. And ideally that's building a little bit of that ownership, that responsibility and that contribution feel. And then, and then there's the logistics. Well, how do I, how do I teach a kid to clean a toilet?

08:42

You know, how do they know like what the objective is in cleaning this toilet? um And that really comes down to doing it with them, showing them, talking it through. It's amazing. Like, Evan, it's not hard, right? It's not rocket science. But sometimes we're so in the nitty gritty of our lives, we're so in the flow that like we just don't think about it. So it takes listening to, you know, Katie Kimball on a podcast saying, you know, next time you clean the toilet, you can grab your eight year old.

09:11

And you could say, here's what I'm going to do. And you just talk it out. And maybe that's it. And you don't have to slow down at all. And then the next time you grab the eight-year-old and he or she does one part of it, maybe they just squirt the sauce, whatever you call it, know, squirt the cleaner into the bowl. Or maybe they do the scrubbing and you talk about how you make a pattern and how you look to see if you've got it all. You know, whatever your own logistics are, I think just remembering that they are capable.

09:40

remembering that it is our job to pass on these skills. And it's far, far better for them to learn it at eight and 10 and 12 and even four years old than it is to be 18 or 19 and just smashed with all the responsibilities of adulthood. So that's one of the benefits for the kids is that adulthood does not crash down on them quite so hard, but then they do have other personal benefits even as that four or eight or 12 year old. Yeah, I think that's a really important point. you know, because life is coming.

10:10

And it's important for them to have those life skills, which I want to get to in just a moment. Um, but yeah, I think that, um, it, you know, it occurs to me, you know, when I'm kind of training people, my employees to do certain things, we talked about, you know, before we got online about having SOPs or standard operating procedures is that you could potentially also take a video, um, and that they could potentially come back to that video about how to do something.

10:38

if they needed to in the future so that you wouldn't have to repeat yourself as well. Now, that all depends on how much media you're giving your kid and what sort of access they have to any sort of library of media or if they have a phone or whatever. But, you know, it's all about kind of like making this easy for you, you know, once you kind of share that information, I would imagine. What do you think about that idea? I love that. And actually to make that kid friendly, you know, for like the tin and under crowd who probably possibly hopefully don't have their own device.

11:06

you can just grab a piece of scrap paper and tape it to the wall in the space where that cleaning happened and draw some simple pictures, you know, and you're seated while you do that. You know what I mean? Like, like how do we balance this? Like Katie, you're just telling me to do more work. But, but if you're writing it out one time on a simple piece of scrap paper and then they can have some pictorial reminders right there next to the whatever it is, the, you the toilet or the broom or whatever tool they're using. Um, and I think another, so the next step I kind of talked about

11:36

Okay, you show them, maybe you start to have them do it. What kids and parents really need, especially when mom or dad is kind of down and out and it's harder to parents, harder to spend that quality time with your kids. We need to make every single moment with our kids quality time, even if it's productive time. And so if, know, my eight year old is cleaning the toilet, and this is true story. I didn't teach any of my kids to clean the toilet for whatever reason. They knew all the like household chores, but except toilet, I thought it was too gross.

12:05

And when my youngest Gabe was eight, he said, mom, everybody else has like their things. And I always do the easy stuff because I'm the baby of the family, which was totally true. And he said, can you teach me to clean the toilet? I'm like, yep, apparently I should. You know what I mean? I know. Yes. Like, and, then of course it was not as cool as he thought it would be like the second or third time, but here's, here's how you keep the kids somewhat motivated. Right. I think all kids deeply desire.

12:34

time with their parents and all kids, are wired for connection. We need to have that connection. So for months when Gabe would clean the toilet, he wasn't by himself, but I wasn't doing his job with him, right? Because if I'm doing his job with him, now he's not saving me any time. He's not saving me any energy, but I could be cleaning the bathroom counter or cleaning the mirror or sweeping the floor. could be seated.

13:02

you know, sweeping the floor or like if I'm really in the throes of fatigue, I could be seated, maybe reading a book to him while he's cleaning the toilet. So we're side along working and he feels like he's, you know, at a cleaning party with mom. And it makes it so much easier. Very few complaints when we were doing tasks in the same room. Very many complaints when I say now that he doesn't need me there anymore, time to go clean the toilet.

13:29

You know, so I'll still try to look for some opportunities where I can like do other tasks in the room. Um, but there are some positives there. One, the child can be slow because they will be, and it doesn't really hurt you because you're still doing whatever you're doing at your own pace. And at the end, you still got to skip one job, right? Out of all the little parts of cleaning the bathroom. Um, and two, you have a chance to reflect and redirect, meaning, you know, I see, I see that you just switched.

13:58

back and forth, but I don't know if you got the whole bowl, you what's the pattern we talked about or whatever, you know what I mean? Like extrapolate that to any task, the child's going to make some mistakes, they're kids, they're just learning. And so it's really nice to be close and just kind of use your words and kind of keep half an eye on them. um And I'm trying to imagine the level of fatigue that your audience is dealing with. Like they probably aren't, maybe they aren't cleaning their own bathroom, um but so don't do the bathroom, right? Do the dusting.

14:27

or do some sweeping such that you can be like resting in your chair. And as long as I think as long as you're engaging with your child, they don't feel like a slave in your household. Or you know what I mean? Like people on social media will say, okay, you just want your kids to do all your work. You are so lazy. And I'm like, oh no, this is way harder. If I was lazy, I would do it myself, you know?

14:52

So I think even if you are in the throes of fatigue and you're just seated and you're resting or you're sipping on your electrolyte drink or whatever, as long as you're hanging out with the kid and talking with them and you can be talking about your day and interspersing little notes about what they're dusting, then it's still a point of connection for them. And it's much more positive than it is a task, know, or a drudgery.

15:17

Yeah. And I think that, you know, asking for help is a really important part of this for people who are fatigued, you know, and so you can really sit down with your family and say, Hey, you know, I'm struggling with fatigue. You know, my energy is not what it should be. I've got enough energy to work, but that's about it. I really need some help out at home. And, and, you know, people are going to, in your family is really, you know, they want to support you. They love you.

15:44

And so I think that, you know, being vulnerable with them is important. What do you think? Oh, yeah. I mean, I talk to parents all the time because I teach kids to cook. It's so a lot of parents get a little vulnerable and say, I don't know how to cook. Like, how are we going to do this together? And I just encourage them to learn right along with their kids. I think it's so valuable for kids to see parents humble, vulnerable.

16:10

lifelong learning, know, admitting that we don't know something and we're learning it right along with them, that gives them a thrill. Like, especially if they like learn a little faster than you, you know, sometimes I play dumb on purpose and you let your child correct you lovingly. I think that's all part of those connection points, to be honest, and it really can build up a child's confidence to know that they are doing real tasks right alongside mom and dad or for mom and dad. And I think, you know, I think there's ways to go about it that can

16:40

be better than others maybe. uh Gratitude is huge. We gotta make sure that regardless of what our kids are doing, that we are so grateful that we're thanking them overtly right to their face, that we're thanking them in front of other family members, and that we talk about, use words like the family team or the family unit, or this is how we love each other here in the Kimbell family. Like you can make it like little commercial taglines that get in your head. What a great thing to have your kid's head.

17:08

Every time they pick up a dust rag or a broom or whatever, think, oh, this is how we do it in the Kimball family. That's incredibly powerful for the rest of their lives. Yeah, there's a lot of pride in attaching that family name to something. Yeah. And, you know, oftentimes I'm also recommending like the compliment sandwich, you know, and so the feedback sandwich where basically if somebody is, if you want to, if you want to coach them on something, people generally respond better to

17:38

Hey, this is what you're doing well. This is what you need to work on. And this is what you're doing well as well. You know, so ending with a positive oftentimes makes it a little bit easier for them to kind of get feedback, but it gives them an opportunity to, um, to do well with feedback, to get feedback and to, and to make changes so that they can do the job the way that you want them to do. And, know, I was speaking to somebody recently who was talking about hiring adults these days, and there's a lot of kids.

18:07

You know in the 20s and 30s who've never really been given feedback And so now you're giving them feedback as an adult and they're they're crying and they don't know what to do with it So it's really important to make sure that you're giving feedback, but you can give feedback in a way or coaching in a way Not criticism, you know so that they can they can improve themselves, but they don't feel criticized. Oh, I love that coaching that criticism. It's a good thing to it Yeah, and we I have that life skills now

18:36

summer camp, and so we teach more than just cooking. We teach all like soft and hands-on life skills. And I think there's a real desire for that right now. I think a lot of parents are hearing those stories about the kids, the youth and young adults in their twenties and thirties who aren't functioning very well in the adult world and thinking, ooh, I don't want that for my kids. I want better than that for my kids. And so I'm real, you know, we are realizing as a general group of parents that we need to give them jobs, responsibility.

19:04

you know, skit actual skills, whether it's executive functioning, organizational type skills, or do you know how to clean a toilet? You know, like even if the robot can vacuum, it's still worthy to teach our kids these skills just for the sake of learning how to learn and learning how to contribute that, that feeling of, contributing and receiving constructive feedback. So important. tell, here's the thing. Okay. So parents lean into the fact that your kids are young and call that out.

19:33

in both directions, meaning if they make a boo boo, if they make a mistake, you say, ah, you know what though? You're only six. Of course you're still learning. Of course you're going to make mistakes. I don't expect you to be perfect, right? So if you lean into that when they make mistakes and lean into it to raise the bar, oh my goodness, like you are only six years old. Do you know how many six year olds know how to do task ABC? Probably not very many kiddo. You are pretty amazing. You know what I mean? Like that's so cool.

20:03

I don't, my third son, John, he's a freshman in high school now, but when he was seven, he asked to use a chef's knife because he'd been using a paring knife since age four. He was like, mom, I think I'm ready. I'm like, okay, we'll level you up. And he's the one out of all four of my kids who most often says, I bet other kids in my grade don't know how to do this. You know what I mean? And you can just hear that little like spark inside him. And we know that confidence.

20:31

doesn't state with cleaning the stupid toilet, confidence is confidence that applies to his academics, his athletics, his social life, et cetera. that's where I say there are benefits to the kids. You're not just using your kids to take time and energy off of your plate that you don't have. You are building better people. You're building better human beings who are mentally healthier and more ready to be productive in the world. Yeah. All that success stacks, right?

20:59

It's like when you get to a point where you're in college and it's time for a final exam, you know, are you going to have anxiety and are you going to break down or are you going to know that you have done hard things in your life before you have learned things and you can accomplish this? Right. Absolutely. Yeah. And this applies to grandparents as well. You know, when you've got the kid, if it's a young kid, if it's a teenager, whatever, you know, it's having these conversations. I think

21:27

You know, so much of this is about treating the individual as an adult, you know, and, and, and where you, where you, you know, you respect their opinion. And for me, you know, I've got a teenager, she's 17 for me, it's more about like asking her questions and kind of leading her where I want her to go and how trying to have those conversations. It doesn't go well if I just tell her what to do, right? I need to ask her, Hey, I really need your help with this as part of the family.

21:58

Yeah, in the teen years, it shifts quite a bit the way that we have to interact with our kids. My daughter is 17 as well, so that's very interesting. Yeah. So what do you recommend? How does it need to shift? Well, I agree. It's very much more teamwork, much more sideways than top down. I think, I mean, we want to give all of our kids ownership, ownership of decisions.

22:28

is one of the later things to go, right? So when my son was eight, he might've felt some ownership over the toilet, but he wasn't deciding how often to clean it, what cleaner to use, you know what I mean? And he doesn't get to make very big decisions in his life, but the older you get, and with cell phones and car keys, we've got to train our kids to make good decisions, which comes down to what you just said. It's asking them questions more than telling them things. Even just last night, we live in Michigan and we've had our...

22:56

first big snow of the year. So I mentioned to my daughter, she was like, oh, driving to work was just terrible. I hate this snow. And I said, is it okay if we go over the snow driving reminders? And she was like, I think I know, I think I know it. And she said a couple of things and I said, well, do you remember what squaring up a turn means? And she's like, no, I don't remember that one. So yes, putting a question mark at the end of most sentences and passing on decision-making.

23:26

So with a four year old, it's like, do you want to wear this outfit or this outfit? Very simple decisions. Both choices are acceptable to the adult. And so how do we get from there to, well, you're a senior in high school. Should you have a curfew? Should I be taking your phone at night anymore? Because my daughter, does your daughter do this? My daughter reminds me often that by next year, she'll be out of the house and I won't be able to tell her anything about what to do. Like you're right.

23:55

And so that has to change, especially at 16 and 17 and 18, the way we parent and the decisions we allow them to make. It feels much more collaborative um at this stage. Yeah. And I think that there's a lot of checking in that happens. So, you know, my daughter is now she has her phone in her room with her because next year she's going to write. And so, um you know, I'm asking, I'm like, how did you sleep last night? You know,

24:25

What time did you go to bed? You know, and fortunately she shares this information with me because she knows that I'm also not going to judge her. And so she's like, you know, I didn't get a lot of sleep and it'd be like, you know, were you distracted at all by your phone? And I'm not judging. I'm just asking questions. Be like, you know, just something to think about, you know, and then she notices that she's not sleep. Like she's getting less sleep and then she's not functioning as well. And then I'm just trying to observe and,

24:55

and notice things by saying, do you think that maybe you're, you're tired or you're not performing as well in school because you're not getting enough sleep?

25:05

You know, just trying to plant the seed, right? So that they're thinking about my voice. She's thinking about my voice when I'm no longer there. A hundred percent. And it's so hard to know how fast to let some of those responsibilities out. Like I said, my oldest is 20. So, you know, he's, he's an adult and I think he was overhearing a conversation with between us and his brother, who's a freshman in high school about bedtimes or something. And he said,

25:35

to us, you know, he's like, um actually, thank you for giving me a ridiculously early bedtime that I was embarrassed about in high school. He said, because now that I'm totally in charge of my own bedtimes and go to bed stupid late, he's like, I feel the difference. And he said, I can look back at high school and see how my peers performed with cognitively, you know, on tests. And people would always say, oh, Paul, you're so good at everything. And he's a talented dude, but he said, I

26:04

I I was just like more at peak performance because I wasn't super addicted to my phone and I wasn't on my phone at midnight and you were making me go to bed at ridiculous like nine or nine 30 until his senior year. Like he got teased about his bedtime and we didn't know if we were doing the right thing. It just felt like he's like, he has to get up so early. He should still go to bed. Um, but he actually thanked us for that. So parents hold that in your mind. And I mean, you all know what it feels like.

26:33

to be fatigued, our teenagers who are staying up till midnight, that is not their circadian rhythm. Well, that is their circadian rhythm. It's the getting up for school that's really messing with them. em But nobody likes that feeling of walking through like peanut butter all day because you're just so, and your limbs are so tired and your brain is clunking along. So we definitely wanna get our kids better than that. So we've gotta keep those sleep restrictions there, maybe a little longer than our peers.

27:02

You know, maybe our parent peers are letting their middle school kids choose their bedtime. Don't do that. I don't think it's not a good idea. You're an MD. I'm curious how you feel about that. But I would say keep those bedtimes, keep some screen restrictions with, again, a gradual release of responsibility. But basically, whatever the culture is doing, you should probably be a little more conservative if you want to raise kids who are peak performers. Absolutely. Yeah, I definitely agree.

27:32

And I think that there's so much comparison. My daughter's like, I'm going to bed earlier than all of my friends. Yep. Right. And I'm like, and how are they doing? Right. You ah know, we're worried about I was like, and it doesn't matter that I'm an M.D. Right. You know, so she's like, whatever, know, show me the research. And then I show her the research and she's like, Pa, you know, whatever.

27:58

So, but it's, yeah, it's just so important and just keep coming back to that. Like we're going to do what's important for us, you know, and you know, being that I had chronic fatigue, my wife had chronic fatigue. Like we know how important sleep time is. We know how important good food is. And these are the trying, we're trying to impart these things to her and there's pushback. And so there has to be some, you know, some flexibility there and

28:22

And acknowledgement, but not so rigid that, you know, it erodes the relationship. So it's like, I don't want to be her best friend. Right. But and I and I want to make sure that she's she's taken care of. but there has to be some flexibility in there. How do you navigate them? You know, I read a book called Untangled by Lisa DeMora. It's fantastic if you have girls. I wish I'd read it when my daughter was 11. I read it when she was 16 because it's focused mostly on girls. But she talked about parents relaxing the rules.

28:52

And so her example was her buddy in high school was told by his parents, cannot wear this like one rocker band t-shirt every day. So every day he would tuck it in his back pocket and he would change on the way to school and end up wearing the contraband rocker band t-shirt. And she uses that example in her practice. She's a therapist and says to parents, here's the deal. The parents might've even known he was doing that, but had they just taken the rule away because he was breaking it anyway, as a teen,

29:20

His job is to push the boundaries and become his own person and be independent. And so if he didn't have that boundary to push, he would have to find another boundary to push. And maybe it would be one that's a little more dangerous to his physical or mental health than wearing a stupid T-shirt every day. So her point was, I really believe this is true, is that we have to set limits that are firm. And I always call it choice within boundaries. We want our kids to have some choices. We want them to have some agency, but defenses need to be solid.

29:49

that when they bump up against a boundary that we have set, they understand that if they break it and we know there are consequences and we're not going to just move the fence because they pushed on it, because then they don't know when we'll stop. It's actually really anxiety inducing, whether it's a two year old or a 17 year old. If the fence, the metaphorical boundary of your rule moves when they push it, they're going to have to keep pushing it just so that they know when am I safe? Like when do I have a grownup?

30:17

who's gonna tell me when to stop. It's very scary if the grownups aren't telling the children and teenagers when to stop. And so, yeah, when we talk about bedtimes and screen times, with teens, we have to explain a little more. We can explain our why, but the boundaries should stay very firm according, I believe, to your family's values. And I know, you we were talking about how you tell a lot of your community to cut certain foods. We're just, we're gonna cut a couple inflammatory foods. We're gonna focus on...

30:47

you know, some whole foods. And so how do we, how do we help our kids see that? Like how did they fuel their teenage adolescent or, you know, five year old bodies and gradually release that responsibility to, to take control of what they eat. Right. Yeah. Parenting is, is so, is, I mean, it's such an amazing growth opportunity and it is so incredibly challenging. You know, I apologize all the time to my daughter because there's

31:15

There's something that I, you know, often if, if, if something comes up and I haven't thought something through, then the reaction that comes through is my parents. Right? I mean, that's the, that's the rule that comes through and it may not be the right rule for the situation or the right reaction or whatever. And so there's just so much apologizing that ends up happening where I'm like, you know what? I come back to her, maybe five minutes, maybe five days. And I'm like, you know what? Remember when this happened, I was wrong.

31:45

You know, and I'd like to have more of a conversation about this because, um, now I'm, now I'm thinking about it and now I'm more conscious about it. Right. And I think that, um, um, that's because parenting is so hard and because our kids are constantly growing and they are pushing that envelope that it's so easy to make the mistake, these make these mistakes. Where do you feel that apologizing? We're going all, we're doing this, all this great parenting stuff. I love it. Thanks for going down this rabbit hole with me. So.

32:15

Where do you feel like apologizing? It comes into play as a part of parenting. Evan, all I could think when you were confessing to us that you apologize, let your kids was that's why your daughter will tell you the truth about what time she goes to bed because you are open that you're not perfect and that you make mistakes and you let her see your thinking and you let her see you adjust. So she trusts you. It's huge. It's huge. You can't trust someone.

32:44

who's never apologized to you, because you're not sure if they're fake or narcissistic, full of themselves, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, our kids need to see we're human. And that doesn't mean we move our boundaries like crazy and we're all flimsy and whimsical and stuff, you know, and where you don't have any rules. It means we let them see that it's okay to make mistakes. Wow, that's so powerful. So powerful. Yeah. And then they know what a good apology looks like. uh

33:13

And then you can also set a new rule and you can hold firm to it. You can be like, you know what, now that I've thought about this, let's have a conversation. This is what I'm thinking. What do you think of that? know, yeah. And then you can have a conscious dialogue about it. Yes. I know when I work with parents with picky eaters, a lot of the process I use to help the picky eaters build a better relationship with food comes down to routines and structure and expectations or lack thereof.

33:41

And sometimes I'm asking parents to do some hard things or some things that might feel uncomfortable or counterintuitive to the way they were raised. And I say, you know what? It's always gonna be a little tricky. A new routine is always gonna be a little bumpy, but I want you to try any parenting decision you make, try to hold fast for at least three days, ideally seven, because you kind of need that time, that like squishy middle transition time to figure out.

34:10

if you've done the right thing or figured if it's gonna work. So if you're always like changing your rule or adjusting things on the fly, just because the kids are complaining or pushing back or it doesn't seem to work perfectly right away, then again, the kids don't know where the boundaries are. So I always say give it three to seven days, make the intentional change. That's when we're not like coming up with a parenting rule in the moment. Like I totally see your point. Like sometimes five minutes later, you're like, oh man, that was not a good idea. um

34:38

But if you're making an intentional decision, like I'm listening to Katie Kimball, she's saying, you know, don't let my kids snack right before dinner. And that seems hard. And it's gonna be, I'll just try it. You know what I mean? Like you make an intentional choice. And so we've got to give ourselves and our families that transition time for kids to settle in. And then once they trust us and know that the boundary is going to stay there, then they tend to settle down. They tend to stop pushing back. So it's actually like, no, it does not strict.

35:07

parenting, but there are strict boundaries because there's a difference there, right? So it's a loving boundary and the boundary is firm. It doesn't mean I'm like yelling from the treetops or something or being a strict parent, but we want to make our boundaries firm so that our kids understand that we have made an intentional choice. Right. And that, and the pushback actually will diminish a lot. And sometimes we say, okay, this is the firm boundary, but we're going to try this out and see how it goes. Right.

35:37

Right? So that's like that seven days that you're talking about. It's like, this is going to be firm, but then we're going to do this for a week and we're going to assess. You know, we'll have a conversation. Yeah. And I'm a super science geek, so I'm always explaining to my kids, you know, or I'll explain to my parents with picky eaters, like the reason that we have a 90 minute minimum span between snacks and meals is because that's the time that we need to digest. And that's what's best for our bodies, whether we're two or 92. And so I think

36:04

I don't know, my kids probably get tired of me going teacher mode and not every parent is going to have that teacher mode to slip into. But I think explaining what you're doing and why has a place and the older your kids get, the more of a place it takes. And now it's a lot easier to find the data and find the information because you can ask AI, you know, you can, you can put in your question, you can get the response back. I'm using perplexity a lot these days because I find that the sources

36:34

are really the most accurate of any of the AI right now. And so you can ask that question and be like, all right, let's let's look at the research on sleep. What time should you be going to bed? You know, like what's recommended? What does the research say? Let's take a look at that and see. So I appreciate that. Yeah. So do you parent like your parents parented you?

36:58

Yes and no. My mom was a really intentional parent. She was a very critical thinker and read a lot of books and I think she made a lot of really good parenting choices. My dad is 87. Like he was born in the Great Depression. So he didn't, I don't know, he didn't really parent. When you say like, when you're not thinking and you say things that you wish you hadn't said because it sounds like your parents, that's my dad. Great guy.

37:28

loving church going man. Um, but I don't know that he really knew how to parent. He just told us what to do. So luckily he was usually at work. uh Um, so I see, I see a little bit of my mom coming out in me for sure. The good parts, just, yeah, the critical thinking and, and being when I'm gentle, like that's her coming through for sure. Um, but I also have a lot more systems.

37:57

than my mom did. So chores in my house growing up were like super random. We might be asked to clean a bathroom one week. We might not the next week. Like here's some laundry we need to fold. ah You know, they were very, very random. The only thing that you could be sure of is you had to rake leaves in the fall. And so I think that's, mean, I hope that's a little nicer for my kids that there is a system and they just understand. And so it feels more of a family team than like whack-a-mole.

38:25

which is what chores in my childhood kind of felt like. And I definitely left home not knowing how to cook. And it was very tricky to figure out how to feed myself. And I burnt a lot of food and uh I didn't know, I definitely didn't know like the value of real food. I a lot of processed food. So I did a lot of like re-parenting myself, like growing up in my twenties, kind of figuring out like what foods will really nourish our family.

38:54

So then what did it take for you to become an intentional parent? Because it sounds like you had your mom was doing some of that, but then you kind of took the next step and you created systems. And so were you journaling? Were you reflecting? Did you just like have some downtime to actually think about what you were gonna do as a parent? You like you said, now parents can talk to AI. So luckily for me, I was parenting at the advent of kind of the internet and.

39:20

parenting blogs and the inundation of information. And I'm a big reader as well. So I would, I would definitely read information on the internet and read books. Um, and just my poor kids, they've always been the guinea pigs. So I tried a lot of different discipline and parenting systems over the years, but there's a, there's a sense of true North for me at least. And I hope most people have that where you can just tell

39:49

what feels right, what feels like we're really valuing our children and we're really breathing life into them instead of maybe crushing some of the joy that they have, if that makes sense. Yeah. I remember my mom saying that parenting is the most important job that we do and it's the one that we're least prepared for. Right. And I remember she took some classes by Chaim Gannat, I think back in the day in the eighties.

40:19

Um, and, uh and I took some parenting classes and I think a lot of this comes down to mindfulness. Like you said, true North. It's like, how does it feel in your body? Right. And, you know, and I know for me there was like, Oh, she's not going to talk to me like that because, you know, she's being disrespectful. You know, she was, my daughter was a teenager, but I had to let that stuff go. Like she was going to curse and she was going to push back and like,

40:48

How rigid did I want to be? Like, where was that line for me? You know, like, is that her acting out? Like if she flicks me off, like, how am going to react to that? Is that, and I found like that, you know, that was more insecurity on my part or shame or guilt or, know, like if I, if I could let things go and I wasn't seeing it as a personal front, I could have a better relationship with her, you know, which was different than the relate. You know, I could never do that to my parents, right?

41:18

And maybe it's a different time. Maybe I'm maybe we're different people. But I think so much of it comes down to that mindfulness. Like, how do I want to be? What do I want this relationship to look like? How does it feel like for her on the, you know, on the other shoe, you know, sort of thing? And so it's that intentionality that I think is really challenging. And it takes thought. It takes time to actually, you know, not just reaction. Right. You have to choose to be intentional. You do. I wish I could.

41:48

do over the first 10 to 15 years. Cause I think, I mean, I'm a trained educator, like that's what my college degree is in. So I had a little bit of a leg up compared to, you know, other people just coming in with a finance degree or whatever. Um, so I feel like I did a decent job, but connection is probably if I could talk to, you know, my early parenting self and just the idea of co-regulating a nervous system and connecting with a child and using eye contact and touch and

42:16

Duffing in the words when they when they are in high emotions and they're throwing a fit whether it's a two-year-old tantrum or a 17 year old flicking you off Their brain is in no state to listen to language. I didn't know that I didn't get that innately as a young mom like now I read some more books, you know And I understand a little bit about how the brain works and just that of that idea of just being calm So I'm looking forward to being a grandparent. I'm only 45 and I'm like, I can't wait to be a parent because then I can like

42:46

do some of the things that I didn't know how to do when my own kids were two and five, you know, just to just hold the child or just give them some space to calm down and separate the teaching from the tantrum. It's huge. think that would have made a big difference in my own nervous system regulation as a young mom too, cause I would get so worked up, you know, my kids throwing a tantrum, it's super embarrassing.

43:11

Right. But it wasn't about me. Like you just said, I think we've just kind of realized similar things about ourselves that when we're insecure in ourselves, we're parenting from more of a place of fear or a place of, anger instead of intentionality. So again, looking, looking forward to being a grandparent. So excited. And so much of this goes out to all of our relationships, right? You know, our spouses, like what if we didn't take things personally, you know, in all of our relationships?

43:38

Right? Conversation would be so much more chill, wouldn't it? Right? That's a that's a mic drop right there. So this has been excellent. I got one last question for you before we start to wrap up. So what do you think about allowance for kids? Some sort of stipend? This is a good one, and I'm I'm so blessed to have worked with so many other experts. Like I said, in life skills now we get to teach finances. And so I I like the both and.

44:07

approach. I don't think, I don't think kids should get an allowance just for being alive because there's too much risk of entitlement there. Can they be paid for some chores? Yes. Should they be paid for all chores? I don't think so. So if an allowance means they get $5 a week, no matter what their contribution is, no matter what their ownership is, you know, then it's probably more hurtful than helpful. But having money,

44:36

is so helpful to be able to think about budgeting and saving and, you know, saving for a particular goal. So I think it's great to give kids money. Right now, our kids have specific, they have specific number of chores they have to do just for being part of the family. And if they go over and above that, because there are always some things on that little list that don't get done, there's too many jobs for all of us, or there's seasonal stuff, right? There's raking leaves, there's shoveling snow, whatever.

45:06

And so if they do anything extra, then they do get paid for those. And so I know some experts call that like a gig system. If you do a gig, you get paid. If you do a regular family responsibility, that's just part of being part of that family team, that family culture. And so that's kind of where I am right now. um I don't know. Yeah, did you do allowance? Yes. And I don't feel great about how we're doing it.

45:35

but um I haven't found a better way of doing it. And so she does the dishes every single day. She empties the dishwasher. um And then she helps out with other things. But when I give her an allowance, I give it to her and I say, thank you for everything that you do for the family. Nice. So it's tied to. Yeah. So I feel good about that. And I make sure that I say that every time. And then she's very good about.

46:03

holding onto her money and budgeting it and all that sort of thing. But it just, I don't know, I've heard of people saying, well, I would normally give you this amount, but because of taxes, I'm only gonna give you this amount to teach them about taxes. yeah, I don't know what the right way is of doing it, but that's what I've chosen to do. But I still struggle with it, but it's what I've Yeah, there's so many options. I just interviewed Amanda from WalletWinds. I gotta credit her for this on my podcast.

46:31

And she said that once kids reach teenager-dom, they will figure out how much they would spend on that child on extracurriculars, clothing, everything, and give that child the money at the beginning of the month. And then the teenager has to make the decision, like, I gonna buy the Nike name brand sweatshirt? Or am I gonna go to a consignment shop? Or maybe I don't need a sweatshirt, and then I get $45 in my bank account. I'm like...

46:58

Whoa, like that takes a really good budgeting parent to do that. I'm not sure I'm quite that organized, but it was fascinating to think about allowing the child to just like keep whatever, not even child, allowing the teen to keep whatever they don't earn. I don't know. Yeah. That's super interesting. It's awesome to watch kids learn. I think it depends on the kid too, because like my daughter, I can't really get her to spend money. Like she'll, she'll go out with a friend and she'll get something to drink or whatever, but she's quite frugal.

47:28

And so that's different than, you know, having a kid who likes to spend. Right. And yeah, that system, it's not something I've tried. Like I just heard the tip. I'm like, that's so fascinating. Cause me, I'm all like, well, give kids knives, you know, and see what happens. Excellent. Well, Katie, thanks so much for joining me today. Where's the best place for people to find you? Oh, we've got a link that's going to go directly to your free gift. You want to talk a little bit about that?

47:58

Absolutely. Yes. Speaking of knives, uh our members favorite class to teach with their kids is our knife skills. Because when you're talking about eating real food and whole food, if you can't unlock the produce section with a knife, you can't get much done. uh And so we teach the same ways to hold the food and ways to move the knife to kids, two years olds with butter knives or 12 year olds with chef's knives. So I have this 10 minute knife skills and safety video at kids cook real.

48:26

food.com slash energy MD podcast. And so your readers or your listeners can go there and check it out. And because, know, again, with fatigue, maybe you're not able to stand at the counter and show your kids how to use the knife. So I'll do it for you. I'm happy to take that off your plate and you can sit at the table and actually PS the table is a perfect height for children age 10 or 12 and under. It's actually better for them to work at the table. So it's perfect. You can sit next to them there at belly button height.

48:55

counter's too tall for them anyway. And they can learn to cut up good, healthy whole food and take ownership for you. That's awesome. And so tell us a little bit more about the work that you're doing. So it sounds like you're teaching kids how to cook. Yes, our Kids Cook Real Food e-course teaches kids ages 2 to 12 the basic skills that they would need to follow just about any recipe. And then we're just developing nearly finished with Teens Cook Real Food for ages 13 to 21. That'll release January 2026.

49:25

um And so that's, it's bigger. That's much bigger. It includes grocery shopping and meal planning and a whole bunch more raw meat. That wasn't something I dug into real deep with the little kids and just lots of nice skills, lots of real food. And with the teens, I've had so much fun working with them um on how to think about what they want to eat. How when you get to, when you cook, when you know how to cook, you get to make decisions. It actually gives you a freedom and it gives you choices.

49:55

because you can choose if you go to McDonald's, you can choose if you buy convenience food at the grocery store, or you can choose if you throw a whole chicken in your Instant Pot and make homemade broth and homemade soup. know, like if you have the skills, you actually have more choices. Cause I think teens like that's their jam, right? Like they wanna make choices, they wanna be independent. And so it's really amazing to watch them learn how to be competent in the kitchen and feed other people. ah So yeah, really looking forward to.

50:24

seeing how that does out in the world. I'm excited about that for sure. Is there anything else you want to share with our audience about you, about the topic that we covered today that I haven't addressed before we adjourn? You you admitted that you apologize often to your daughter and that you're not perfect. And so I think that's where we should end is just reminding that all of us aren't perfect. We would all go back and redo things from a day before, a year before, 10 years before. And especially when you're hurting.

50:53

it's okay to make mistakes. It's okay to maybe put off some of this stuff until a day when you have some energy. Um, but also that family team is indispensable that on a day when you do have energy, keep that in mind. Like, Oh, Katie said, maybe I could, you know, teach a skill to my child and that child can take responsibility and ownership and contribute. And, uh, it's such a beautiful thing that will come back to you with many, many returns.

51:21

Yeah, this has been a really great conversation. Katie, thanks so much for joining me today. Really appreciate you taking the time. Thanks, Evan. So if you have chronic fatigue, whether it's from long COVID or chronic fatigue syndrome, go ahead and click the link below to watch my latest master class where I go deep into our four step process that has helped thousands of others resolve their symptoms naturally. After you watch that video, if you're interested in seeing if we're a good fit to work together, you can then get on a free call with me. All right, thanks so much. I'll see you over there.