Is Upper Airway Resistance Syndrome Causing Your Sleep Issue? with Jonathan Kiel Jensen - #148

Is Upper Airway Resistance Syndrome Causing Your Sleep Issue? with Jonathan Kiel Jensen - #148

00:00

Hey everybody, welcome back to the Energy MD podcast where we help you resolve your long COVID and chronic fatigue syndrome by getting to your real root causes, which are a combination of heavy metals, chemicals, molds, infections, and nervous system dysfunction so that you can get back to living your best life. So I'm really excited about today's episode because we're gonna be talking about a very little known disorder of the face and the jaw that ends up contributing to sleep issues.

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So if you have sleep issues, you're definitely going to want to pay attention to see whether or not this applies to you. So we're going to be talking with Jonathan Kiel Jensen. And so let's learn a little bit about him today. So Jonathan Kiel Jensen is a dedicated patient advocate, specializing in upper airway resistance syndrome, or UARS, and sleep disorder breathing. After years of battling chronic fatigue and unrefreshing sleep,

00:59

He discovered how subtle anatomical factors were contributing to his sleep struggles. This insight led him to dive deep into research and advocacy, helping others recognize and address the often overlooked signs of UARS. Based in Denmark, Jonathan now consults with individuals worldwide, empowering them with knowledge and personalized strategies to improve their sleep and overall wellbeing. Jonathan, thanks so much for joining me today.

01:29

Thank you so much, Evan. So why don't you tell us a little bit about your story? How did you get interested in this? So how it all started was basically just I was fatigued and I couldn't really find a reason for the fatigue and slowly I just basically searched the internet for every cost that could be possible

01:58

And I went, first of all, I thought it was something about this and that. And then I ended up learning about sleep issues, which resonated a lot with me. So what ended up happening was I went to my local ENT here in Denmark and asked for what is called a normal sleep study, which is an at home sleep study. You get home to screen for sleep apnea.

02:27

And that was my initial thought that maybe I do have some sleep apnea issue because we all know that sleep apnea is very common. It causes a lot of fatigue and exhaustion. So I got the test and I brought it home and I slept with it. And it's just an at home test and you can sleep with it at home. I basically I know a lot of people who listen right now maybe have tried one.

02:54

So I got the results and I had no sleep apnea. I was like, what in the world is going on? I must have something going on here because all of the symptoms of sleep disorder breathing was resonating a lot with me and it made so much sense about the symptoms that I had. So what ended up happening was I needed to get a in-lab sleep study. So a sleep study that you make in a sleep lab. So I drove all the way to Germany and then I got the sleep lab in Germany

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ended up getting the diagnosis of upper airway resistance syndrome. So yeah, that's how it all in a very, yeah. Yeah. That's how it all started. So, yeah. Thank you. And so what symptoms did you have that made you think that you had a sleep disorder? Yeah. So the symptoms that I had was of course the fatigue. Um, and also I had a lot of insomnia. I had a lot of, um, like vivid dreams and I would wake up.

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very frequently in my sleep. I would wake up to pee at night. And I would always, some people would say that I snored a lot and stuff like that. And I would just have brain fog and anxiety, all that stuff, which is all the usual main symptoms of sleep apnea. So that's why I thought I had it. And so you were diagnosed with UARS, the upper airway resistance syndrome.

04:22

And so then what did you, what happened after that? Yeah. So when I got the diagnosis, I, the first line of treatment for every OSA patient is to get a, a CPAP, which is, which stands for the continuous positive airway pressure, which is like this machine, everybody knows it, I think. And it's, it just blows open your airways and it's supposed to hold it open and it's supposed to treat the symptoms. Right. I got one of those and.

04:51

and I slipped with it and it just did not work at all. And I had no idea why. I was extremely confused. Like why does this treatment not work for me? And a lot of people don't have compliance with the CPAP machine, unfortunately. But it just made me a lot worse. Then I ended up going to Germany once more and then I had something called a DICE, which is a drug induced sleep endoscopy.

05:18

where an ENT basically just drugs you with the... Yeah, drugs you to sleep. They try to mimic sleep and then they put a endoscopy down your throat and to see where the collapse is. And then I found out I had something called epiglottis collapse, which is... My epiglottis basically just acts like a trap door when I sleep, so it shuts down on my airway and it causes these microarousals all day, all night, so...

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That's how I found out. And then I just went all in with the research and stuff. And then I found out I had to do something about it. I had to... Then I figured out that the cause of this trapdoor epiglottis, the whole cause of my sleep disorder was actually because I have a small jaw, I have an underdeveloped jaw, I have an underdeveloped upper jaw as well. So the way you want to approach this...

06:16

If you want to cure a sleep disorder, a breed and you have to maximize the size of your skull, basically you have to maximize the size of your airway permanently. So this is that that is essentially the trip I am on right now. Yeah. Okay. And so, and how did you find out that you had a small underdeveloped jaw? Yeah. So the way I found out was

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One of the things you do when you have a small jaw, the best way to treat a small jaw is to have a jaw surgery. So I went to a jaw surgeon actually, and he did a CBCT scan, a zone beam scan, and you can do a 3D image on it, and you can see the size of the airway, and I just had a very small airway. It's just, it's completely in the red, if you have ever seen it. And that was like the...

07:15

that compared with the sleep study, then you know, all right, you probably do have a problem. And of course you have a problem if you have a positive sleep study, but now you just, you can just pinpoint, all right, you can actually see that you have a narrow airway. And these narrow airways are like way too common today. Unfortunately, the people in this world have way too small jaws and a lot of people have underdeveloped jaws, which inevitably, sorry, which

07:44

results in a compromised airway. And a compromised airway, you will have a higher likelihood of having sleep apnea. So that's basically what it is. And when you walk around in the public today, if I go down the street of Copenhagen or something else, the first thing I will do is to analyze people's faces and I will look at the jaw, I will look at the width of the maxilla, which is the upper jaw, I will look at the...

08:13

the posture and the nose and when you've seen so many faces, if you have seen a lot of faces, you can make a pretty dedicated, yeah, you can pretty much guess if someone has a small airway. It's pretty easy to see actually without even doing a scan, but sometimes it's a little bit, it's not that.

08:42

a little bit hard, but usually you can just make a pretty good guess if someone has maybe sleep apnea just by looking at them and listening to their symptoms. It's actually not that hard, I would say. Yeah. So it sounds like everybody who has a sleep issue should get a sleep study. And a home sleep study may not be enough because it's only testing for obstructive sleep apnea. They may need an in-suite

09:10

sleep study in order to be able to determine if they have upper airway resistance syndrome. Is that correct? Yes, that is very correct. And this is one of the big, big, big, big problems that I wanted to really clarify today, which is the home test that I talked about, which people usually get home from their local ENT. It's only screening for sleep apnea and it's actually very bad at it.

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When you're screening for sleep apnea, we have something called an AHI score, which stands for apnea hypopnea index. So it's basically how many apneas and hypopneas you have an hour. So if you want to score, if you score five over five, you're in the mild category. And if you're over 30, you're in the severe and in between you're in the moderate. Right. But in order to get one apnea.

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like one apnea or one hypopnea, you have to have either a desaturation in your blood when you're not breathing, or you have to hold your breath for more than 10 seconds. So, in normal, this is how you distinguish sleep apnea from upper airway resistance. So, sleep apnea, you hold your breath for longer than 10 seconds,

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desaturation in your blood. That's what's leading to all the heart problems. That's what leads to people who get heart disease, all that kind of stuff. But when you have upper airway resistance syndrome, you wake up before the 10 seconds even. So you can have an obstruction in your airway, maybe only like one second, and then your brain wakes up, boom, like that.

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And then on the test, it would not be scored as an apnea. But the thing is, it's essentially the same thing that's happening because when you wake up from your sleep, your sleep cycle is disrupted. So you go from a deepest stage of sleep to a lighter stage. So essentially what happens in my case, which was every time I would hit REM sleep, especially REM sleep.

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because REM sleep is where your body is basically paralyzed. The only thing that moves is your diaphragms and your eyes, right? So the airway gets even more compromised when you're extremely relaxed. So every time I hit REM, my airway gets too small, and then I will wake up, boom, and then I will go back to a lighter phase of sleep.

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and then back into RIM and the cycle just repeats and repeats and repeats. And what happened on my sleep test, I ended up having an RDI, which is a respiratory disturbance index. So it's not an apnea index, but it's a disturbance index. So how much essentially were you disturbed? And I had a disturbance RDI of 26. So that means I would...

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I had a disturbance 26 times an hour. So basically, I would wake up like every two minutes and on average in my sleep, which is insane when you think about it. It's actually, so that's why. And finally, I had an answer for all the fatigue problems and all this stuff. And that's why I... So everybody who listens to this at home and...

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and maybe you have got a sleep test, an at-home sleep test, which you got from your ENT, and you were sent home immediately because your ENT said, well, you're fine. You have an AHAI of zero, or maybe it's two or something. You do not clarify for a CPAP. You do not have sleep apnea. Your symptom is not, it's not something that's, yeah, it's not sleep-based, right? So basically that's one of the reasons why

13:21

So many people are undiagnosed with upper airway resistance syndrome. It's basically insane how many people have not get... Yeah, with sleep apnea, 80% of all who has sleep apnea are not diagnosed, and it's even higher with women. So it's probably even higher than that with upper airway resistance syndrome, unfortunately. And we know right now that the AASM,

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associated sleep. It's basically those who set the guidelines for sleep medicine and they estimate somewhere between 936 million people worldwide had sleep apnea. So basically one billion people has sleep apnea and that's only sleep apnea, right? That's not even with the upper airway resistance syndrome. And there's a very nice...

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doctor who's called Dr. Steven Parks. He's like a extremely well-known sleep medicine doc and he says that the number of people who has upper airway resistance syndrome is probably the same as sleep apnea. So roughly, this is very roughly, right? But roughly estimate is two billion. We do not have any official numbers, but we can just make an educated guess, right?

14:47

And I had to clarify that it can be mild to moderate. Most people probably would not notice that they had upper air resistance syndrome. And you don't even have to snore to have it. So it's very hard to have it actually, so yeah. So you get the diagnosis from the at-home test. And then you can determine, because you can have it, I mean, what sort of anatomical problems

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Like, do you need to have the small face and the jaw issues, or can you have it for other issues? But they're all going to be anatomical issues, correct? Yeah, no, not necessarily. And this is where it gets really interesting. And this is where the functional medicine actually collides with the sleep medicine, if you ask me. Because yes, you're very right, Evan, that...

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if you have a smaller airway, if you have a smaller jaw, yes, you would be in the category where you're more likely to have sleep problems. And I would say that the vast majority of sleep problems, which are chronic, I say chronic because that's an important word here, but the chronic sleep problems, the vast majority of chronic sleep problems, I would say they're probably related to breathing problems.

16:15

But as you say, yes, you do not have to have a small airway, but most people do. But what's happening here is that there's something called the arousal index. And as I said before, people with upper airway resistance syndrome, they wake up before the 10 seconds of obstruction happens. So it's not scored as an apnea.

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it is scored as something called an respiratory-related arousal. So it's a respiratory-related arousal. So you wake, it's basically you wake up because you cannot breathe properly, right? But what happens is that sometimes

17:07

The difference is why is some people not waking up after 10 seconds and why do some people wake up immediately? Like, basically you cannot breathe. So the question is why is some people in the sleep apnea category and why is some in the upper airway resistance syndrome category? And this is where all the new stuff comes around and this is where I believe and also other sleep medicine docs believe that...

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the something called the arousal index plays in. So how sensitive are you as a person to waking up? You probably know some guy who can lay down in a bus and he can take a nap and you can literally scream him in the head and he would just not wake up. And then you have some people, if they hear like a tiny click when sleeping, boom, they will wake up. Right? So why is that? Why is it that some people are

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very very deep sleepers and why are some extremely mild sleepers. So this sensitization of the the arousal index is what basically determines if you're in the upper airway resistance syndrome group or in the sleep apnea. So all the people who are extremely sensitized they'll wake up like that. You know me, I'll just wake up immediately. So the smallest amount of restriction in the airway

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when you're breathing, it could be like a light, light snore. It could be very quick snore and boom, the body already wakes up because the body is hypersensitized. Why is it so sensitized? And this is where the toxic five comes in and you can make some discussions about, well, the body is in a chronic state of stress. And that's why it has a lower arousal index. This is my beliefs as well.

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So that's why the functional medicine stuff and getting rid of the toxic fives also might also contribute to the desensitivities. Yeah, I'm not fully English here, but you get what I mean. So when you get rid of the toxic fives, you basically are able to sleep more deep and your arousal index will go up.

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down and you won't be that sensitized. So that's one of the important parts here. And yeah, so that's why I also think a lot of people get better sleep actually by removing the toxic 5, which is the heavy metals. You guys, listeners know that. And that's, but still the breathing problem is there. But now the amount it takes for your body to wake up is just...

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It's just less, but the problem is still there, which remains as the small airway, right? So it's this combination of having the small airway and then having an increased arousal from nervous system dysfunction from one of the Toxic V. Yes, exactly. And this is very new stuff. This is like my sleep doctor in Germany, the guy who diagnosed me is like

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Pioneer on this stuff, he's extremely clever. He actually wrote to me that he had never had a patient knowing this much about it as me. That was, that was pretty nice. But he said that one of the things he also recommended me doing, and that is why a lot of people also see improvements, I think was just all the basic stuff. You know,

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Get rid of stresses, get rid of caffeine, get rid of all these things, because all of these things contribute to this arousal index. And I know you probably have felt it yourself, like if you're in a very stressful period of your life and you would wake up like nothing would happen, like the smallest sound would wake you up. That's your arousal index.

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just being way too sensitized. So the question is, the two things we have to fix, to fix this upper airway resistance syndrome is to fix the sensitivity and also fix the airway. And that's when you have, that's when you can enjoy proper sleep again. So it's a mix, but the airway is probably the biggest part.

21:42

So then besides removing toxins or, and stressors that are kind of like upsetting the nervous system and causing and contributing to these sleep issues, what are some lifestyle habits that people can do right now? You kind of started talking about them a little bit, you know, in terms of avoiding caffeine is dairy potentially an issue, you know, because it increases mucus. Like, can you talk to us about some of those things? Yeah, of course. Um, we have, it's more like

22:09

Talking about the airway again, you could have, you know, usually some people, you've probably heard people say, oh, I have such a big tongue and my tongue is too big for my mouth. Like it's not your tongue that's too big. It's just your small, it's your jaw that's too small, right? It's not your tongue. It just grows like it would normally grow. But yes, you're right that inflammation.

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would drive up the size, it could drive up the size of the tonsils, it could drive up the size of the inflammation in the nose and we also have stuff like a deviated septum that could also cause problems. And the whole nose is a big topic on itself, like your nose has to work perfect in order to have good sleep. It's very important that your nose works. So this is where allergies comes in.

23:07

Allergies is a very, very big one as well, because if you live in a mold, I see so many people talking about, oh, I have this stuffy nose inside the sleep communities, inside the upper airway resistance, they all say, oh, I have allergies, like, but they always use these steroids, right? But this is where all the stuff comes in again, like mold and...

23:35

inflammation and good dieting is also important to have these things work, right? You need to figure this out. So yeah, that's also an important part of it. Yeah. That's helpful. Yeah. So anything that can cause inflammation, if it's an allergy or some sort of exposure, it can make those turbinates in the nares boggy or basically swollen, right? And so then you get some more of that obstruction.

24:04

So what do you think about mouth taping? Yeah, mouth taping is a good question because mouth taping is very in right now. You know, it's the nose tape, you've probably seen it, everybody talks about it right now. You know, the small nose strips just put on your nose and then it widens your nose and then you can breathe better. So as I said before, a good nose is like the foundation of good sleep.

24:34

So it's extremely important that your nose works. And the reason why people mouth tape is because they want to avoid, you know, mouth breathing, the one to avoid using the mouth at night. But the problem is that I had this problem myself because I lived in mold. And I tried when I lived in mold. So basically I had an allergy while...

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while I was trying to mouth tape. And what ended up happening was I just made things worse because I couldn't breathe probably through my nose. So what people has to understand is that if your nose is too blocked when you're sleeping and you've revert to mouth breathing, you always revert to mouth breathing when you're asleep because your nose is too stuffy.

25:27

And there's two things that you can do about that. The one thing is of course address the allergies but also address the size of the upper jaw of the maxilla. So what you do basically the roof of your mouth is the floor of the nose. So if the roof of your mouth is very small, the roof, the nose cavity will be small as well.

25:56

That's why I told you before that when I look at people's smile, I look at something called the buckle corridor. This space right here, if people have a lot of buckle corridor, the maxilla is small and the nose will be small as well. So when people ask me, can I do mouth taping? I will usually tell them smile for me and I'll ask them about allergies and I'll ask them...

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know how that goes. So if you have that problem, you have to address that with skeletal expansion, which we can talk a lot more about. But basically, if you cannot breathe at night through the nose, it's very important to address that. And you could use the nasal strips, but it's just the band aid, basically. So I would only advise people to use the mouth tape if you can use your nose properly, because that's the foundation. That's the takeaway here.

26:51

Yeah, and part of that, part of why I recommend it to a lot of people that I work with is because it puts people into their parasympathetic, right? Breathing in the nose takes you out of your sympathetic into your parasympathetic, which is great. So if people deal with the inflammation and deal with the allergies and work on the toxic five and they're still having issues, then it sounds like they really need to go for surgery and do some skeletal expansion. Is that correct? That's the next step.

27:19

Yeah, I mean, first of all, if you think you might have a sleep disorder, first of all, please go do a sleep study where it's an in-lab sleep study where they test for the... What is called... You have to ask them for the RERAs because not every sleep lab is testing for the... It's using the same criteria. So it's a big mess.

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So even if you're in a sleep lab, sometimes they will just send you home even if you have a diagnosis. So it's very important that you ask them for the virus, right? But if you do have, and if you end up getting a positive diagnosis and you do not wanna use the CPAP and the nasal strips are not enough for you, the mouth taping does not work and maybe not sleeping on your back is a big one as well. Do not sleep on your back if you have sleeping problems. Then I would go, yeah, I would go address the problem.

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the skeletal issues and I would go see a jaw surgeon and I would make a CBCT scan and then I would have someone analyze it to see the dimension of the airway and see how big it is and see where you can improve it. So that's basically what people send to me. They go to some dentist and then they have a CBCT scan and then I have the program on my computer as well. Then I basically scan people's faces.

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And then I pinpoint, okay, this could be a problem. You have a deviated septum or you have a big turbinate. Some people do turbinate reduction or you just have a small airway at the aurora fairings, which is in the back of the throat. So that's what I would do. And yeah, that's basically what you have to do. And then you can address, okay, what's the next step? So it's sleep study, find out if you have it.

29:16

Next step is go get a CBCT scan of your whole skull and check for any abnormalities of the jaws and see if you have any restrictions in the jaw. So just to clarify, when people go for the in-lab sleep study, they're looking for, you said U-Ares, that's the upper airway resistance syndrome, right? That's how you kind of say the abbreviation, right? U-Ares, yeah. Yeah. And then the CBCT is a cone beam CT, correct?

29:46

Yeah. Okay. Yes. Right. And so they get the cone beam CT and then they see a jaw specialist. And so is this a, you know, this might be different in the States than it is in Europe. Is it a, I mean, what kind of doctor is that an orthopedic surgeon? It's a, sorry for interrupting. It's a jaw surgery basically. Okay. And they do a MMA surgery. It's called Maxill.

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maxillary mandibular advancement. So it's both jaws. Some people only do the small jaws, sorry, the lower jaws. You can do whatever what's appropriate, but it's really important that you find a surgeon who knows about the sleep stuff as well, because some surgeons are very aesthetic driven. Some people are, some surgeons are very functional driven.

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And it's a big space as well. You have to choose a good surgeon, someone who is willing to push your jaws as much forward as possible. Yeah. And that's, yeah, sorry. No, go ahead. Oh, go ahead. I was going to say, so then in terms of finding this kind of surgeon, is there an organization or some training that they need to have done in order to understand this condition? Usually they will understand it.

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they'll understand the relationship between jaw size and how much you advance it. They know about it. Some people, some of the surgeons, it's a little bit woo woo, but some of them are better than others. Yeah, especially some of them are. Yeah. So that's how you find them. You're going to see them and you're asking them like, you know, are you familiar with upper airway resistance syndrome?

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Yeah. Do you do MMAs, the maxillary advancement or the expansion? Yeah, I would ask them if I had a sleep problem, I would highly recommend you ask them for, if they've done it before and ask them how many millimeters they would give you. Because if you, it's a threshold, if you go over 10 millimeters, the likelihood of you being cured is a lot higher.

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jaws are pushed as much forward as possible. Like you can do a test at home yourself, like if you push your jaw back with your fingers and you try to breathe and you relax your muscles, you can just feel how it just gets blocked up. And when I look at you, Evan, you have a very nice facial development actually. So I wouldn't be...

32:32

I would not be concerned if I were you, but you would never know. Like you would never know. So that's how you do it. And just to clarify, this is usually the CPAP works for most people. So for UAR, also for UR-RS. So the treatment for UR-RS is basically the same as sleep apnea.

32:59

It's completely the same and the surgeries are completely the same. So the treatment is the same overall actually, because what you're treating is a smaller airway. So in terms of the surgery, that MMA surgery is the same one that people would get for sleep apnea? Yeah, exactly. Okay. So people who do MMA, they also... Because it's the same problem.

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It's just, as I said before, it's just the question is just whether are your sensitivities so sensitive or are you not. So that's what determines if you're in the upper airways resistance syndrome group or in the sleep apnea group. But the problem is the same. Yeah. You have a resistance in the airway and your body wakes up and reacts to that.

33:58

to tell people as well about the symptoms, because a lot of the symptoms we have is also not what you would think of being sleep-related. So actually one of the things that happens with upper airway resistance syndrome is a lot of people get very cold hands and feet, actually, a little bit like fire issues and the botanical and stuff like that.

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What essentially happens with upper airway resistance syndrome is that when you have an obstructed airway and your body has to react, every time your body, like every time your airway does this, your nervous system has to react. So what it does is that it sends out cortisol, it sends out adrenaline

34:56

So basically, every time you have an arousal, your adrenals are working, right? So you're having cortisol constantly going through all night. So what ends up happening is that your adrenals get extremely taxed. So you end up with HPA axis dysfunction, right? And HPA axis dysfunction in itself has a lot of symptoms.

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So that's why a lot of people with upper area resistance syndrome usually feel very stressed, like they feel physically stressed because the body has been in such a severe stress through the whole night. And a lot of the symptoms that also comes along with that is just for women, it's a lot of hormonal stuff. It's a lot of...

35:51

Yeah, the cold hands and feet. And actually one of the unfortunate one as well is that it impacts your gut microbiome. So it kills beneficial. It just destroys your gut. If you're in chronic stress the whole night, it shifts the balance totally. And what happens is that like when you have slept for eight hours with interruptions all through, you just, when you wake up in the morning, you're just set on cortisol like the rest of the day.

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So the digestion is sluggish. You'll, a lot of people have IBS, which is a result of a sleep disorder breathing. And they'll have like chronic diarrhea and all the usual stuff, which you would never think to be a sleep disorder breathing problem. And you would think it's related to something else, especially the cold hands and feet, like.

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how in the world would that be sleep related? But it actually is in some cases. So it's just to tell people that a lot of these symptoms are not directly correlated with the usual stuff you would hear about sleep issues. It could be a lot of things. Yeah, that's very helpful. Yeah, and I think part of it is probably when you're not oxygenating your tissues, you're not getting enough oxygen when you're breathing.

37:15

And then consequently, that's why when people have sleep apnea, they're waking up, they have headaches in the morning, you know, or you've got the cold hands, you know, you're just not getting enough oxygen to your tissues. So this has been really great. A couple more questions for you. So why is this such a problem, a modern day issue, the smaller faces, especially? Yeah. As I said before, it is estimated that one billion people suffer.

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from the normal sleep apnea. So the thing that drives this problem the most is it's the industrialization of the world. We have all the processed food, we have soft diets, we have a lot of the allergies, like this is where the allergies comes in handy, comes in play again, because we both know that mold is a big, big...

38:12

It's a pretty big problem, right? And if you're a small guy, if you're a small kid and you're living and you have two kids and your kids are mouth breathing all night because the mold is just everywhere and the sinuses are just blocked, what's happening is that if you do not nose breathe and you do not have proper oral resting posture of the tongue, which is up in the maxilla, your face will not grow properly forward and it will not grow to the full

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potential. So a lot of the people who have the worst cases of sleep apnea is unfortunately the kids who have allergies the whole life because they have to revert to the mouth breathing and this essentially destroys their airway in the end. So this combination of allergies and toxicities

39:09

The toxicities in itself is also just shrinking the face, but allergies and soft diets and not having proper old posture, it's the biggest cause. And that's what's driving these small faces. And the faces, if you look at faces for, like look at celebrities for 100 years old from 19 or 18th century, you would see that their faces are a lot more broader.

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bigger and already in 100 years from today, the phases has already shrunk a lot. And it's just going, it's just getting worse and worse and worse. And the guy, Steven Parks, which is the guy I follow, which is the guy I mentioned before, the sleep dog, he says he thinks that this problem is on the level of the climate change. That's how serious he is about it.

40:08

Because he thinks that one day, like every person just has a sleep problem because, you know, the faces are just way too small. And unfortunately, and then we have a dentist as well, who's shrinking them even more, which we can talk about all day. You know, pulling a teeth, pulling teeth out of children's mouth, the premolar extractions, which orthodontics do, which causes the mouth to become even smaller.

40:38

Um, that is a very big one as well. Um, so that is basically the causes. So the way to cure this is to, yeah, make it bigger. What about breastfeeding? Oh yeah. Oh, sorry. I actually meant, uh, I forgot to mention that because breastfeeding breastfeed feeding is one of the number one contributors as well. Um, it's, it's been studied a lot that

41:06

breastfeeding is... So what happens when you're breastfeeding? When a baby is beating on the breast of the mother, the tongue basically goes up the palate. So you can try it yourself actually. If you take a sip of water from your trunk or something like that and you can just... And you keep swallowing and you swallow and you swallow and you swallow and you swallow. You can just feel how the tongue goes up in the palate.

41:35

And then what it does that it's widening the jaw and that widening. And of course, baby's face is it's basically like it's butter, right? You can just pull on it and the bone will follow, right? So that's what happening. So basically breastfeeding is for the maxilla to grow wide. And that's why having a myofunctional therapist, which is an expert in looking at a child and

42:05

and confirming that the child is having a proper swallow is essential for a nice face today. So that would be one of my takeaways today is that if you're a breastfeeding mother, I would really advise you to have someone look at how your baby is having the swallowing function of your baby has to be correct in order for the faces to grow correctly. And we've seen this with

42:33

There's a lot of studies where one twin has been breastfed and a lot of one had allergies and didn't and they just look completely different. And one of them is, yeah, that's insane. So there's a lot of proof that this is working. So you have to really do that for your child. So the breastfeeding is beneficial. And the lack of breastfeeding that doesn't give them that suction and allow to create the jaw.

43:03

Yeah, that's one of the things, one of the very important things as well. And do we know how long is ideal for the breastfeeding? Like, you know, is it a year? Is it two years, three years? I was breastfed for four years, which is why I have such a nice jaw, I think. Yeah. And that's honestly, that's probably why that, which is crazy because Evan, you have a really nice forward grown face, which is ideal.

43:33

minimum of the myofunctional parishes, they say just, I've heard some people say four years as well. I've heard some people say at least one year and I think the average is only like, I'm not sure what the average is but I know that I was breastfed for nine months, which is all right, but some people they just, you just got to remember some people aren't even breastfed at all. They just get a bottle, which is insane.

44:04

And that's one of the problems in the UK actually. I don't know if you ever noticed that the... Sorry, but if I... Sorry, some people say that all the UK citizens are so ugly and that's... And maybe it's because of how many... Sorry, it's a... So many of the women in the UK actually don't breastfeed. They use the bottles instead. So they think it's a...

44:33

they think it's awkward to do the breastfeeding or something like that. So it's, it's, uh, it's a very, it's, Ooh, I don't even want to think about not doing that to my child. So. Very interesting. Well, Jonathan, this has been wonderful. I so appreciate you sharing your time and your education, your knowledge with us. Where can people go to learn more about you? If you want to, if you have any questions about your own situation,

45:01

Or if you might think you have a sleep disorder or something, you can honestly just text me or at my email or you can find me on some Discord service or you can find me on Reddit. And I guess Evan will put my email in the podcast. So you can just text me and then we can have a chat about stuff because I love helping people and I do this.

45:29

just to help other people. So I do this every day. So it's no problem that if you write to me, trust me. Wonderful. Well, Jonathan, thank you so much and thanks for listening everybody. We'll see you next time. So if you have chronic fatigue, whether it's from long COVID or chronic fatigue syndrome, go ahead and click the link below to watch my latest masterclass, where I go deep into our four step process that has helped thousands of others resolve their symptoms naturally.

45:59

After you watch that video, if you're interested in seeing if we're a good fit to work together, you can then get on a free call with me. All right. Thanks so much. I'll see you over there.