The 4 Step Process to Transforming Mental Health Issues with Christina Bjorndal, ND - #140

The 4 Step Process to Transforming Mental Health Issues with Christina Bjorndal, ND - #140

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Hey everybody, welcome back to the Energy MD podcast where we help you resolve your chronic fatigue, whether it's from long COVID or chronic fatigue syndrome so that you can get back to living your best life. So really excited about today because we're gonna be talking with my friend, Dr. Christina Bjorndal, all about how you can optimize your mental health. So Christina has a long history of mental health issues. She is experienced with depression. She attempted suicide and survived three times.

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had anxiety, bulimia, bipolar disorder type 1, which had several episodes of psychosis in addition to having cancer. She draws on her clinical training in naturopathic medicine and her additional trainings in mind, body, medicine when striving to address patient mental health concerns. She's overcome many mental health challenges and is a gifted speaker and best-selling author. She's recognized as a top naturopath to follow by two independent organizations.

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and she has created two courses, Moving Beyond the Mental Health Label and Supporting Clinicians to Support Their Patients. Dr. Chris, thanks so much for joining me today. Thanks for having me. It's good to be here. So let's start off by kind of getting into a little bit of your story around the fact that you had fatigue and you had depression, right? Yes, yes. Yeah, so, you know, really,

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for me, things started to turn sideways when I was in high school and I was an overachiever and striving to be the best in all aspects of my life. And then I went to university and I did the same thing, but I ended up hitting the wall, if you will, and being diagnosed with depression. And then shortly after that, I was prescribed medication, but that

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I found myself after a few months in a place I'd never been before, which was I wasn't sleeping and I was talking very quickly and I spun into a delusional psychotic event, which was very, very shocking to me because I didn't know what was going on in my body. I was then diagnosed with bipolar disorder type one. And what I did with that is pretty much put it in the corner and lived with a lot of shame around it and didn't want to have anything to do with it.

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And I kept marching through the world wearing this mask that I've got it all together. But really I was struggling on the inside. And so things really took a deeper turn for me that now I'm working in the corporate world. I ended up climbing the corporate ladder quickly and reporting to a CEO and then I was had a suicide attempt that left me in some very difficult health conditions with kidney failure.

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I was on dialysis and so that was a real turning point for me because I was not happy that I was still here and I had to figure out why I was and how to navigate my life in a different way than taking the psychotropic medications that I was taking at that time I was taking five and I don't mind taking medication if you get better. That should be a prerequisite to taking medication that you improve.

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I was not improving. So basically I ended up making a career change because I was tired of being sick and tired all the time and it wasn't until I went to see a nutritionally oriented psychiatrist named Abraham Huffer and a naturopathic doctor that I was able to bring some life into my spirit and and really realize that there's more to life than than feeling tired and sick all the time. So that's.

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That's kind of the 57 year journey in a nutshell for you. In a nutshell. Yeah, lots of ups and downs, it sounds like. And I love what you said about medications. Whatever you take, whether it's a medication or a supplement, it should be more than a band-aid, right? It should reverse the problem. So what did you find were some of the root causes of the challenges that you had?

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So one key thing for me to mention is that I am adopted. So I do think that from root cause from root cause perspective, we want to look at the four big picture areas that are within all of us, which is the physical level, the mental emotional levels and then the spiritual aspect. So for me, it was it's multifactorial because

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On the physical level, that includes your organs of detoxification and your hormones and your neurotransmitters and nutrition and sleep and movement. And none of those were in place for me. Like I, you know, I would get a score of zero out of 10 in every area of those, right? So it's really hard to navigate life when your tanks are empty on all, I think all cylinders are firing at zero, right?

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So, but that eventually with working with Dr. Hoffer, the physical level was supported with supplementation. However, that isn't also going to necessarily solve the problem because nobody was asking me what I was eating. So you can take a nutraceutical or a herbal medicine or you can take a pharmaceutical, but those are all working on a similar level.

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The only difference is where they're derived and how they're made. So it's very important to get back to basics always. And I think as clinicians we're quick to reach for our prescription pad whether we're going to prescribe a pharmaceutical or nutraceutical or a botanical and I'm not saying not to do that. But what I am saying is we also want to keep enforcing and encouraging people to get to the basics with the nutrition that they're

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that they're eating, but also not just on nutrition. What about also the relationships that you have, right? Because you can have toxic relationships that comes to that mental, emotional, spiritual piece. The puzzle too is, so looking at the whole house here, right? We have to look at the whole house from ceiling to attic to what's the foundation and how are you, how are people really living their lives?

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So you talked about the physical. This is like lifestyle habits, it seems. You had sleep and movement and nutrition and all that. And then mental, is this kind of like how we're thinking? Is this mindset? Is this how we problem solve? Would you tell us more about that? Yeah, so for me with my journey, it started on that physical level, right? So I replaced pharmaceuticals with botanicals and...

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nutraceutical supplements and I got better. But when I stopped taking those supplements, I ended up depressed again. And part of the reason was my nutrition was not sound. Okay, I was a vegetarian and there was no vegetables in my diet. So I was vegetarian, right? And I wasn't eating any protein. And we all know that neurotransmitters are derived from essential amino acids. So, you know, I wasn't giving myself the precursors to make these things myself. And so,

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The other piece so that's really important is the mind though. What's the nature of the thoughts that you're thinking? And I had very strong inner critic inside my head that was constantly for lack of a better word bullying me into perfectionism into being the best into overachieving and and that is you know, yeah, it's going to get you somewhere for sure. But

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do you ultimately, how do you feel about yourself? And if you're working against yourself every step of the way, that is one strategy. But for me, it always left me feeling not good enough, right? You know, one of my diagnoses I like to say is not good enough, itis. You know, that's what I struggled with. And so shifting that inner voice and becoming aware, first of all, it's all about first step is always awareness and recognition. Like what

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is the nature of the thoughts I'm thinking because 90% of your mind is run by the subconscious mind and it only when you can bring these thoughts into your conscious present-minded awareness then from that place you can create change. So for me the tool that has helped me the most was an instruction from my naturopathic doctor which we'll share today which is called the four R's of working with problematic thoughts. We really need to

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Bring awareness to what again, what is the nature of what we're thinking? And the reason is your thoughts create neuropeptides. Neuropeptides affect the hormones that get produced and then those hormones that get produced in turn affect how you feel. So we have a chicken and an egg problem here. So for me, it was I really do think I struggled for probably 20 years longer than I needed to because I was really

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resistant to the idea of change your thoughts change your life. But now that I'm on the other side I can say to you, you know, there's a lot of science and merit and truth to that statement.

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Why do you think you were resistant? You know, because I felt like people were implying that I was intentionally causing my own suffering.

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And I didn't buy into this idea of affirmations because I believed the negative statement. For example, we'll use the negative statement for me was I am unworthy. So for me to turn around and say I am worthy. Well, that's felt like spraying baloney, you know, whipping cream on a pile of baloney. I believed the latter statement, which is I am unworthy but because of Candice Perks, Candice Perks work.

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in psyc which is just a fantasy word that means your thoughts affect your physiology. Nowhere does it say you actually have to believe the thought you say. And that's where I was stuck because I believed the negative, right? So and I felt like I was lying if I said the positive. But because of psyc it's this physiological cascade. And over time, actually, you do feel better.

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So I say to my patients, look, if you're like me and it's a struggle that was is a struggle for you, then let's just go neutral. And the neutral statement to that example is I am. And you don't fill in the blank. Just I am.

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which is a very powerful statement.

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this thing that is a mutual statement. I have a client right now who's really struggling with this very thing where he's like, I cannot say these affirmations. I cannot, you know, do gratitudes or whatever, because I'm not feeling it. And it is like, it must be his integrity or something around, you know, he can't lie. I'm like, just fake it till you make it. I was like, you don't have to believe it or anything. And it's just not something that he can do.

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Yeah. So two things there. The word can't. Okay, that's a very disempowering word in cognitive behavioral therapy and in Gestalt psychotherapy. We say that can't is a and should are these are words that keep you stuck. So first we want I would bring awareness to that with him that word and replace it with will or won't those are conscious choices. I will or I won't do affirmations or I will or I won't.

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follow your instruction and it's okay if you won't but now we can break that down and take a look at well why won't you what's what's really because there's layers with people often that's the first thing and the second thing is we're not asking you to believe it right we're just asking you or go or go neutral like I said just find something softer and neutral that you can and I think if he understood this physiological cascade like just to right

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Because at the end of the day, there's only two branches to your nervous system, sympathetic and parasympathetic or stressed or relaxed or fear or love, bully or buddy. These are just, you know, other words to hammer the point home. But when you're thinking thoughts that are based in criticism, you're leaving yourself in a sympathetic or stressed state producing more cortisol, which then it perpetuates the problem. So yeah. And is it hard work?

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to identify those thoughts and to reverse them? I think it, yes and no. I think that for myself and most of my patients, those thoughts are really running the forefront. They're really at the forefront of people and they're right there on the edge. Most people are often wearing this mask.

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But at the minute you might ask, do you have an inner critic or you know, what's the, what is the voice that's speaking to you on the inside that you're not willing to share always on the outside? And they give you an insight insight into that. Then you know that they're walking around beating themselves up. And that comes from somewhere, whether it comes from our in utero experience. In my case,

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It comes from your childhood conditioning, comes from a coach, parent, teacher, friend, who knows? But it comes from somewhere. And the beautiful thing is thoughts are not fixed entities.

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But we can change them, but we have to be able to be open and present and willing to be real and authentic with our doctor or our loved one or whoever, whoever it is that you feel safe. And that's the other key thing is we have to be able to feel safe to share these.

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These things that are in the dark recesses that we don't really want anybody to know that we think. Right? So I know for myself, you know, if my doctor didn't specifically ask me if I had a plan to end my life, I wouldn't I wasn't forthcoming with that information, right? Or and same with the bulimia, you know, if they didn't ask me what was going on. I wasn't forthcoming with offering that information over.

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Right. So as clinicians, we have to ask the right questions. Number one and number two, as patients, we have to give some help to our doctors because they can't read our minds. Right. If you don't ask the right question as a doctor and you don't offer the information up as a patient, then how how are we going to help you?

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Right. And so is, is asking whether somebody has a plan. Is that something that anybody can do? You know, if somebody is concerned about somebody being suicidal, can, you know, do they have to be a clinician or can they be a friend or a loved one or whatever? And ask if somebody has a plan. Well, I think if more people asked if people, how people were doing and if they had a plan, then maybe our suicide rates wouldn't be so high. Cause most people feel really alone.

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Right. And I think most people now I can wear both hats here. So as a person who's attempted my life many times, I can tell you that even if you ask me, I might not have been honest with you. Right. Because because that's something that I'm intent on doing and I know that you're going to try to stop me. Right. So it's really up to the individual to be honest with

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where they're at and their desire to be here, who's the person who's suffering. But then on the other hand, as the caregiver, the doctor, the friend, the parent, the colleague, what can happen on their end is they don't want to take, so we don't want to always take responsibility. If I ask this question and then they, they disclose that, yeah, well then, well, what am I now? What am I supposed to do with that? Now I'm responsible for this person.

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And that's the biggest fear I hear often amongst clinicians is they're afraid to ask because they don't want to be sort of on the hook if you will. And this is where the spiritual piece comes in because at the end of the day, this is this is really about your relationship and connection with spirit and God really ultimately. I mean, I'm not going to be so egotistical sitting in my chair thinking that I've got the control over your life.

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I don't. But what I do have control over is imparting into your heart from my heart that you're worthy and that you're lovely and loving and that your life is worth living and that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary situation.

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and that there's explanations for your suffering and will you hang on with me a little longer so we can figure this out? Because I guarantee you it's solvable, guarantee you.

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And I think if we spoke to each other like that, then more people might feel that they're valued. So then how do you, that was very beautiful by the way, I love the way you said that. So how do you convey to somebody that life is worth living?

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Part of it is asking them to share with you something that makes that lights them up, whether it's a pet, whether it's a, I mean, this is dating myself because this is not, I'm not in this generation, but you know, whether it's a video game, I mean, I don't know, right? I'm not so out of my realm to say because I'm like, okay, that's but you know, for me, it's a pet or a person or.

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Uh, you know, a grandparent or is there, cause I guarantee you, no one is truly all alone. Could be even be a plant, right? But some other living thing, you know, preferably, but, but it doesn't, it could be art. It doesn't, but there's gotta be something that sparks the person. And I, I have yet to meet somebody who hasn't says they have nothing that sparks them.

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So it seems like some of it is, is not necessarily, is maybe not having access to that or not thinking about that or attaching onto that. So when they have that, that spark, then is it about cultivating more of that? Yes. And finding meaning in the meaningless, because a lot of people feel like, what, you know, what is the point? Like really, what is the point?

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And I've asked that question to myself many times. What is the point? Like really? And I've come to the conclusion since I feel like I've, again, I mentioned I'm an overachiever, right? And yet in this particular area, I've attempted a few times that I'm still here. So one could argue that I suck at that. Maybe that's a good thing, right? Or I'm slow learner, I'm not really sure, but I've had to reconcile why I am still here.

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right when other people are not and what I've come to accept is that there for me the lesson that I'm here to learn is to learn how to love and accept myself and others and extend that love not only extending it to others but also being able to receive it because when you grow up with the abandonment wound that I grew up with from being adopted you grew up with.

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I grew up with this set of faulty beliefs that I wasn't wanted and I'm not good enough and all of that wiring and imprinting again, it caused me to be this overachiever. But at the same time, there was a huge price that I was paying because of those faulty beliefs that had to be eventually uncovered and looked at and addressed and changed. Right? And so trauma is a big piece of the puzzle. You know, not one.

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Not one doctor in the 45 years that I was seeking help ever asked me about trauma. So it is a big piece when you mentioned at the very beginning of this conversation, you know, what kind of, what was the root cause, right? And one of these root causes is for, for, for some people, it doesn't have to be adoption, but it could can be other trauma that happens that, that imprints you. And then you form beliefs.

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So it's not this story about the event. It's what were the beliefs, what beliefs did you form as a result of that experience? That's the key.

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for people. Meaning of the event that you made it mean for you and that is that's where the medicine is because when you can uncover that meaning and then take a look at it from this perspective when you've got 50 years or 20 years or however many years after that event, is that really true now? Right?

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And so you can step into life. Go ahead. Well, I was going to say, is that where like the four Rs come into play? They do. Yeah. So the four Rs, the first step is recognize, what is the nature of the thoughts that are happening here in your head, inside that you're not speaking outside to people. And if you recognize that it is based in the inner critic or unkind or fearful or negative, whatever it is, then can you second,

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is refrain stop can you refrain from following it because we follow these thoughts around and around and around so can we interrupt that process I'm not saying suppress it's very important I'm not I'm just saying can we just let go of feeding it and feeling it so stop that's refrain number three we do so by relaxing into the breath most people are living right here from the neck up and we're discounting our body

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And when we breathe, most people are just breathing from a little bit top part of their lungs, but your lungs go all the way down to your diaphragm. And then your diaphragm, when you contract it, what's sitting underneath it on on top of your kidneys is your adrenal gland and your adrenal gland produces cortisol. So when you take a moment to pause and take that deep diaphragmatic breath, you're actually physiologically giving your adrenal glands a little bit of love. And they don't have to.

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And you're no longer producing thinking thoughts. Ideally, you're looking at something in nature, giving your egoic mind a job to do. So we look at something in nature, we take two deep breaths, and then we come back to the moment. And then we step into the moment. So the fourth R is repeat steps one, two, and three, recognize, refrain, relax. And then the fifth R is that rephrasing. So that's this.

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The four hours is sort of the tool to get you started. But then the fifth hour is that rephrase that we talked about. Like, can we rephrase that statement from I am unworthy to something that's maybe just a little bit more supportive. And it doesn't have to be that big leap, like we said, like with your patient. Maybe it's just something that's a little, just a millimeter shift, right? But that thought you're thinking, that you're attached to thinking isn't actually helping you. Peel. Yeah.

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So that's the four hours. And that was very powerful for me because the first doctor that taught me that, you know, was the first person that asked me, well, what are you thinking, Chris? What are you thinking? I'm like, wow, you really want to know what's going on inside here? He's like, yeah, I do.

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Right. I'm like, are you sure? Okay, here it comes. Get out your pen. Yeah, but you cannot. Yeah, go ahead. Sorry. I was just gonna say that's brilliant. You know, that mindfulness to be able to to stop and to recognize and to go through that process. And this is going to be linked below for people who are listening and watching this you can

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download this for our process for free. Thank you so much for providing that to us, Dr. Chris. So stepping in a little bit of a different direction. So why do you think that there's so much mental health now than ever before? Oh boy.

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You know, it's so interesting. I've been speaking for 20 years and Dr. James Greenblatt is another psychiatrist, is a nutritionally oriented psychiatrist. And he said that, and this is like 10 years ago, he said in 2030, which is only six years away. Right. But back then it seemed like a long time ago, you know, that a person is going to attempt suicide every second globally. Like that's like, okay, that's.

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And that's mind boggling. And that was back then. And here we are six years away from that. And yeah, we're on target for that, which is so sad. So why do I think mental health conditions are on the rise? So starting just on that physical level, because I feel that just basically those five things that you mentioned at the outset, there's heavy metals. So chemicals, so from heavy metals, but also from plastics and from the food, from pesticides.

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Um, in the products that we use, the environmental pieces is, is, um, is, is so wide, vast and large. And I can tell you when I cleaned up my life from an environmental perspective, boy, my health is went up another notch. And I'm already was feeling dang good. And now I feel better at 57 than I've ever felt in my entire life, including from when I was 17. And most people say the opposite. Right. So.

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So so many so many factors the environment, our nutrition, our stress levels, our focus on, I think the wrong thing, which is not the family, but money that is also driving stress for people. The materialistic society that we live in is not is not helping our mental health and and placing our values in the wrong thing. That is also not helping our mental health. Our loss of connection with loved ones, our inability to communicate.

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navigate our emotions, navigate our thoughts. It's just so many, so many things and that we're disconnected and community is another huge piece and just learning how to communicate effectively as well. I was giving a talk for the Institute for Child Psychology here and I came across that this quote that said your IQ will get you the job, but your EQ will keep you the job.

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And I felt like that was so true because in my case, I focused on intelligence. Again, top marks getting the job, all that kind of thing, climbing the corporate ladder. But I was not emotionally intelligent at all. I did not know how to navigate my emotions and God forbid I would have have expressed them in a male-dominated world. So, you know, it was just there's just so many things that that affect us. And and I think.

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But at the end of the day, I also see so much opportunity for healing and helping people. And I just wish that we were doing a better job. You know, and so how can someone improve their EQ or emotional quotient? Well, first step is to figure out what is your emotional quotient, right? And these are skills like resilience and purpose and grit and compassion.

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integrity, authenticity. So one of my colleagues, Jen Forstall wrote a book called The Umbrella Effect and it's she calls these skills the umbrella skills and it's really important to be able to develop these. So she has a quiz that I use in my practice for you know, I give this I give this to adults, but it's designed more for children to help them because again at school the emphasis is often on the reading the writing the arithmetic.

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and not on relationships and getting along and solving conflict. Now, again, I'll be dating myself, right? Because it's been a long time since I graduated from high school, but I'm not sure if my son, you know, he's just in first year university. And, you know, I still think the emphasis is more so on those things that I just mentioned in terms of emotional intelligence. But I think we have a long ways to go still. You know.

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for each other's differences, seeking to understand each other from a place of curiosity instead of wanting to win the conversation and be right.

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No. Yeah. So let's get to intuition. I know that you talk quite a bit about this and having people learn to trust their heart and their intuition. How do you recommend people do this? Yeah, so we could start, if you're game, we could do a little exercise. Yeah, that'd be great. Your game, okay. So just so people, just to...

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set the context. What I want people to understand is there's really there's two voices that are often inside of you. So one is this voice from the egoic mind from the head, if you will. And the other is this whisper from the heart or some people might refer to it from the guts. We know we've heard the term gut instinct, right? And it comes down to how do we differentiate and navigate these two voices, which are sometimes

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at odds with each other. So this exercise we're gonna do and if you're listening you can do it along with us. So we just start with placing your hands over your heart and if it's if it's comfortable for you just to close your eyes just to get the ego out of the way if not it's fine too. We'll just take a breath here so just breathing in

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And then exhaling.

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And then I'm going to make a statement and I just want you to repeat it Evan and then the answer that comes and there's no right or wrong. And well, and I'll take you through a few questions. So the first one is heart. Show me where you are. All right, show me where you are.

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And then just share if there's anything that came to you. Could be color, word, nothing.

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Um.

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I'm going to do it again. Art, show me where you are.

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I'm not experiencing anything yet. Okay, that's no problem. Sometimes our hearts are shy. Okay, so the next one is to repeat after me, heart, will you ever lie to me? Yes or no? Heart, will you ever lie to me? Yes or no?

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I got a pretty good no. Perfect. Heart, have I always followed you, yes or no?

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Pretty strong, no. Okay, so heart, how do you feel when you hear? I haven't always followed you.

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So Hart, how do you feel when you hear that I haven't always followed you?

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Sad. So we'll just take a breath there and just breathing into that sadness a bit.

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And we'll just ask heart. Why do you feel sad? Heart? Why do you feel sad?

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Because you're not listening to me. Okay. So heart, can you forgive me for not always following you? Yes or no? So heart, can you forgive me for not always following you? Yes or no? Yes. Perfect. And heart, is it possible that you are God, grace, my intuition, whatever word

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resonates with you there dwelling within yes or no? Yes, yes, yes, yes. Okay. Perfect. There you go. That's it. That's the exercise. So here's how you use this exercise. So what's important to illustrate is those answers are right there. When we take a moment to be still, all we took was one deep breath, closed our eyes to get kind of set the ego to the side a little bit.

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And then the heart was present, right? With those answers, you said quite quickly, no, yes, no, right? The answers from, so here's what we wanna understand. First of all is the quote, the heart must usher the mind into the zone of revelation by Joseph Campbell. Meaning we want to lead our lives from the heart with asking the heart. It will guide you, right? The problem is that we get stuck in fear.

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which comes from the ego. So recognize that the ego is a busy place, is busy throwing off opinions, comments, suggestions, ideas, criticisms, some of which are super helpful, some and others are not helpful. And when I was making my career change, I asked the same question for an entire year in my journal before I acted on the answer, which was the same answer all the time, which was,

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If money didn't or the question I asked was if money didn't matter, what would I be doing with my life? The answer that always came was go back to school and become a naturopathic doctor. But then what do you think the next thing was right after that? Immediately? Are you crazy? So heart said, go back to school. Ego fear said, are you out of your mind? You can't do that. And then it would proceed to give me all the reasons why I needed to stay in my comfortable job.

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So it's about discern. So here's how you work with it though. I'm not encouraging people to, you know, just quit their jobs. I am encouraging you though, to build your muscle here and build your intuitive skill with small little things like brown rice or quinoa, right? Chicken or beef. Or when I met Evan, bacon or more bacon, right? So it's like, you know, just small things that there's nothing wrong if you...

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If you counteract, if you if the heart says quinoa and then you decide to follow your egoic with with egoic mind with the brown rice, nobody's going to be upset. Right. Nothing bad is going to happen. But here's the thing when you learn to trust this then when you get big hits like I should call my mom or I don't think I should take that drink or you know, you'll trust it. And in it and it's a very powerful.

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built in surveillance system that we've all been given, but unfortunately, many of us are just following the mind and the fear and we don't trust this other whisper and it's not going to yell and scream at you. It's just going to whisper at you. Yeah. And sometimes it'll, sometimes the yelling and screaming comes in the form of symptoms. Right? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely.

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So we've got just a couple minutes left. How do you work with people? You're obviously very good at this and I recommend that people definitely check you out. How are you currently working with people? I'm currently working with people in group format in terms of, so I'm not taking a one-on-one patients anymore. My practice is too full and I've written a couple of books. So I would encourage people to check out Beyond the Label, which is the,

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big book that I've written called that beyond the label 10 steps to improve your mental health. The essential diet is another guide book that you can use if you're wanting to just get started with the nutritional piece because I really want to emphasize that that is important and that's it's crucial to get that right. And you can find me you know in all the usual suspects you know online different spots Instagram Facebook.

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As you can see me rolling my eyes, I'm not a huge fan of social media, but I recognize that this is the way of the world. So here we are. And I think those are the best ways. I am writing a new book. So if you hop to my website, you can, you know, stay informed by downloading the chapter of the other of beyond the label. There's a first chapter gift or download this gift that we're giving today. If you want to stay in touch. Excellent. And we will drop all those links below.

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Well, Dr. Chris, it's been wonderful spending this time with you. I so appreciate all these juicy nuggets that you've dropped and that you shared with us today. I really hope that this helps people who are kind of, who are struggling right now with depression and suicidal thoughts to find the purpose, to find that spark, to find that spirituality, to address the four different pillars that you've discussed today. And I hope that they reach out to work with you if they feel so inclined.

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Yes, thank you. Thanks for having me. Thank you very much.