Up Your Joy, Increase Your Energy with Caroline Zwickson

Episode 71:

Ep 71 Up Your Joy, Increase Your Energy with Caroline Zwickson & Evan H. Hirsch

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 00:08

Hey everybody, welcome back to the energy MD podcast where we're on a mission to

help a million people increase their energy naturally decrease their chronic fatigue, their

long COVID their mass activation syndrome, so they can have more fun and more

success in every aspect of their lives. And so part of this process, we're always looking

at the mental, the emotional than the physical. And part of this process really is about

working on the mental and the emotional. So one of the things that we talked about in

our program we've got an expert on today is joy, increasing the amount of fun that you

have in your life. So I'm really excited to be talking with my friend Caroline Zwickson

today, so let's learn a little bit about her. So she is a certified health coach and joy

mentor, with a background in Counseling Psychology. She is on a mission to reframe

how we think about and cultivate joy in our lives, because she has found that when joy is

actively pursued, and begins to play a central role in people's lives, everything ranging

from careers to relationship to health works better, I couldn't agree more. Authentic joy

is the key to creating a life you can thrive them. Caroline is the creator of easy joy, a

simple 28 Day Challenge that guides you through simple daily Joy rituals, I highly

recommend you go check that out on her website. And she is also the host of her own

podcast Joy class, where she interviews inspiring thinkers and top experts on how to

unlock and access Joy consistently. Caroline is also a mom to three amazing kids, two

boys and a girl, a wife, a lover of nature and food, as well as a hobby painter currently

working on a series called energy portraits. She grew up in Europe, but now lives in the

east coast of the US with her family. Caroline, thanks so much for joining me today.

Caroline Zwickson, MA 01:56

Thank you so much for having me.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 02:00

So we're going to be talking about increasing or up your joy, increase your energy. I love

that title. Yeah. So So let's talk a little bit about joy. Let's talk about how you got into this

a little bit. Why Joy? What was it that your what was a little bit of your path that brought

you into specializing in joy?

Caroline Zwickson, MA 02:21

Yeah, sure. So as you said, my background is in counseling psychology. And I actually

wrote my master thesis on how women specifically experience different emotions in

their body and how we can use that awareness of specifically fear, anger, sadness, and

joy in our body in order to create more wholeness and heal the parts of our lives that are

causing us pain and upping the feelings that bring us joy and pleasure. And so when I

think about it, now, I haven't didn't always have this connection to joy. But when I think

about it now, it's really always been something that I've been passionate about, for 10

plus years, and then I've always had a focus on and then specifically, with my practice,

I've had a coaching practice for over 10 years. And what I saw, and what I really

observed is that when Joy was absent in people's lives, people started to burn out, their

relationships didn't work, their health and wellbeing started to become brittle. And so for

me, when I looked at people, people whose lives were thriving, who had a healthy sense

of optimism, who were resilient, all of those people had active joy in their life. And for

people who were struggling, Joy was oftentimes missing and lacking. And so that's I

had this sort of like, big aha moment during the pandemic, when Joy was starting to be

scars in my own life. And I had this super joyful experience one morning, very randomly.

It was a spring morning, and I've been on a walk. And I felt really stressed out and

overwhelmed with three little kids during the pandemic. And I was on my outdoor walk

in the morning, and I looked up and there were all these blooming flowers just around

me like one of those beautiful pink trees, and I was just engulfed. And this beauty and I

had such joy coming into me. And then what happened is that my whole day was better.

I had a great conversation, and it was so much more patient with my kids. First of all, I

was had a great conversation with my husband, like I just felt more buoyant in my own

life. And I remember sitting down that evening and being like, it's joy, like, this is what joy

does to us. It makes us more buoyant. It makes us more resilient. It brings us a sense of

optimism and positivity into our life that allows us to do everything in our life better. And

so that's when I really started to nail down this focus on joy. That's when I had the idea

for starting a joy class podcast. That's when I started to work on my 28 Day Joy

challenge to really help people see that joy doesn't have to be complicated, but that it

can really be so easy with the subtle smile All things that we can practice on a daily

basis that really opened up our joy channels. Because when you start to see the small

Joy stuff in your life that's always available, the bigger Joy experience, they're actually

going to come to you more easily, too. So yeah, that's how I got into the joy world, I

guess.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 05:21

Excellent. So, so why isn't this more intuitive for us? Why are we just constantly living

our lives full of joy?

Caroline Zwickson, MA 05:32

Yeah, I think there's a lot going on in our society. Specifically, I think that we live in a

society that's pretty obsessed with productivity, and really driven by these perfectionistic

principles and ideals. And I think that that is really keeping people in a hamster wheel

where they value accomplishing things, checking off lists, and they tell themselves with

that the joy is going to come at the end of it, like when they've done all the tasks, when

they've finished all the two dues, then they're going to have a sense of joy, or they think

that it's going to be the big vacation, or the big trip that's going to be joyful, but they don't

think of joy as a tool. And so that's how that's what I really want to reframe. When I say

like, I want to reframe how we see joy, or how we think about joy, is I really want people

to understand that it's not just the reward at the end, Joy is actually your most powerful

tool. So if you have active joy in your life, everything else is going to be so much easier.

So I think that's the first one. But I think in our society in general, we are so caught up in

these productivity, productive and perfect ideals and standards that sometimes for us,

it's really, really difficult to tap into the effortlessness of joy, you know. And then I also

think that joy runs in families. And I don't think I don't mean the genetics of people

unnecessarily. But I think that if you are brought up by a parent who actively has joy in

their life and role models to you what it's like to at the end of the day, put the work to the

side, and have just a joyful dinner together and they make it they maybe make the dinner

table really beautiful and take such joy and preparing things with intention and care. I

think that for for people who are raised by parents like that, it's much easier to make

space for joy for them, too. So that's why I say I think Joy runs in families. And I think the

same is true for optimism, too. And Martin Seligman actually did a really interesting

study, or he's his, you know, the founder of, of happiness, basically, the I forget what it's

Institute is called right now. But he essentially looked into optimism and that people are

optimistic if their primary caretaker was optimistic, because they explained the world to

them through the eyes of an optimistic person. And so that's how we adopt optimism.

And I think Joy works similarly to optimism and that way, where if you were you've been

role modeled, from a very young age, what it's like to have joy in your life, what it's like to

have to make space for the things that you like, that bring you joy, that make you happy,

it's going to be so much more intuitive for you to so I think some of it is generational,

too. And I think it's really important for people to look into that. What are parents role

modeling to me when it comes to how I spend my energy? You know, I think it's a really

important important question. And then I think we're also misled by big marketing

companies that are trying to sell us things, you know, and that like tells us that the joy is

in the big vacation, the big expensive, time consuming things that are material. And we

sometimes miss, that joy is actually available to all of us at any time. It doesn't matter if

you're going through an easy time or hard time in your life, you can have small moments

of joy all the time, if you're looking and I call that opening up your joy channels, by really

starting to notice this moment to settle things that are completely free.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 09:09

So yeah, so good. So it sounds like

09:15

I think that's why it's not intuitive, because there's so many different blocks, you know,

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 09:20

there's lots of messages that we're getting that that are not necessarily allowing us to

foster joy. So it seemed like you were saying like, perfectionism and productivity are kind

of the antithesis to joy, or at least they make it harder if we're focused. I mean, I guess if

you're focused on anything too much, right and not focused on this thing over here. But

it seems like they're the antithesis to joy. Is that accurate?

Caroline Zwickson, MA 09:45

Yeah, stress is and I think that productivity and perfectionism fuel our stress immensely.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 09:53

So then, so then how do you how do you start creating or how does one and start

creating more joy in their lives.

10:03

So, I've outlined five specific Joy blockers that I've seen. And I think sometimes being

aware of those can be a really helpful start, because we can try to pull all the joy in that

we want. But if there's these unconscious currents and unconscious patterns that are

keeping us from experiencing joy effortlessly, I think it's going to be hard to make the joy

that you're trying to pull in stick. And so the five Joy blockers that I talked about is

unaddressed or lingering health issues. Right, like if you have raging migraines, and you

are doing nothing to try to address them, it's going to be hard on a really bad migraine

day for you to have joy, you know, and depending on how often you get them to more

debilitating they can become so unaddressed and lingering health issues, and

addressing lingering relationship issues. I think this is a huge one, I think so many

people are in relationships where they aren't able to fully express who they are, they

don't have a sense of independence in the relationship. So a lot of my work surrounds

both health and relationships and trying to align those two aspects of our lives in a way

that creates openness for for more joy. So I think those two are really big ones,

unconscious beliefs and expectations that are keeping us stuck in stress, and

overwhelm. A lot of times the overarching underneath or unconscious belief is I'm not

enough. So if you never think that you're enough, you're gonna be in that hamster wheel

forever, you know? And so I think really starting to untangle what are these unconscious

beliefs? What are these unconscious and quiet messages that I'm constantly sending to

myself that are keeping me from actually putting down to to do this and doing my life,

you know? And then another one is that a lot of people have never actually taken the

time to understand what brings them joy, right? Like I talk a lot with my clients about

energy fuel, there's an energy drainers if I ask somebody, what's draining your energy,

you will not believe how easy it is for people to answer this question. They are, it's so

easy to rattle off like 100 things that are draining your energy that feel exhausting. And

when I ask people what's fueling your energy, you wouldn't believe how difficult it

actually is for people to answer that question. And then some people, even if they can

answer those questions, when you ask them how often they actually engage in those, it

is so so minuscule, you know. And so that clearly the balance of our energy drainers and

and our energy fuelers is completely off. And I think that's again, like we're like a joy

practice comes in. Sometimes it's easier to ask people what brings you joy, then what

fuels your energy, you know, and so this is a really, really big joy blocker, that people have

never actually sat down and asked themselves, what brings me joy in this season of my

life. Because some people can say, Oh, when I was 20, I had no responsibilities other

than like, going to my day job, but I didn't have family yet, or parents to take care of, or

whatever the stressors are. That joy doesn't necessarily apply to the life that you have

today. You know, and so I think it's really important to sit down by yourself or with

someone who you really trust periodically and ask yourself, How am I changing? How

have I evolved, what actually feels really joyful for me in this season of my life, that is

doable, that it's not, you know, that's maybe not the vacation to I don't know, Bora Bora is

somewhere that's, you know, a once in a lifetime, kind of unrealistic, consistent Joy fuel

or to have. So this is, I think, a really important important piece for people to do. And

that I think, happens a lot in conversation in coaching. And coaching sessions, too, is

like really helping people pull back the layers because it's easy. A lot of times what I see

too is that people tell you, what tells you all the things that they think should bring them

joy, right? But like really like, you really got to sit down and ask yourself, like what

actually brings me joy, like the person that I am not the neighbor, you, you know. And

then the last one, then the last draw blocker, and this one, I think is the most complex

one is that Joy's really vulnerable. And for people who have had a lot of trauma, for

example, it's sometimes really difficult to allow themselves to feel joy because it's also

such a vulnerable emotion. And so I think, if if someone resonates with this last Joy

blocker, having a really good therapist having a really good support system where they

can really work through their trauma and loosening up, the tightness that they feel of

having to keep it together, I think is really important in order to soften up a little bit where

joy can kind of flow flow more more freely.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 14:45

It seems like in that case, you'd have to kind of dip your toe into joy a little bit with with

somebody's guidance, you know, and kind of work up to it.

14:53

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. And then, you know, so these five job blockers I think just

assessing that for yourself, and you don't have to address all of them at the same time,

like, allow yourself to take time do one at a time. It's okay if this takes a little bit of time

and effort. And, and yeah, it just takes a little bit of time. I think sometimes we're in such

a rush that like, if it doesn't work right now, immediately. It's not for me. But I think this

is, again, like not serving us. That's not how Joy works. That's not how true happiness

works in our lives, like take it one at a time, you know. So these job blockers I think, can

be helpful in in identifying where you might be getting stuck. And then otherwise, like

you really start to bring awareness to these small things that you can do consistently. I

always smile, I always say smile, and consistent is better than rare and big. And so really

starting to sit yourself down and asking yourself, like, What do I like? What are the things

that I am curious about? What are the things that I would like to try out? And even if it's

just that you can try them out once a week? You know, I think sometimes again, like

going back to this like perfectionism. People like I had a client recently who said, Oh, you

know, I've always been curious about Pilates. I hear great things about it. I feel like it

would be a really fun thing for me to do. And I'm like, okay, like, let's try it. And she's like,

Yeah, but I just don't think I can figure out a way to do it three times a week. And I'm like,

Can you do it one time a week. But I think in our society, we're so perfectionistic ly

driven. That unless we can figure out how we can basically turn it into an Olympic sport,

it's not going to be worth it at all. And so I really want to encourage people out there to

just follow their instincts. And even if you can just do something once in a while, if it

brings you joy, and you like it, and it feels good. Just do it. Just give yourself permission

to do things not not in a competitive way, or not in a perfectionistic way.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 16:50

Yeah, and I think we're notoriously bad at managing our days, you know, and, and as our

responsibilities have increased, since we were 20, right, then all of a sudden, we've got

work time. And then we have family time. And then you run out of hours. And so there's

no use time necessarily, let alone fun time, or joy time. Right. So what do you feel like is

ideal for, for the amount of time that should be spent enjoy per day, per week? What do

you think?

17:26

I mean, as much as possible, I think that we can also combine things like it's not like, oh,

now I'm at work now. It's not my joy time I'm at work, or I'm with my family attending to

my, my kids. Now, it's not the joy time, it's you don't have to put your joy on a pedestal or

think that it has to be this complicated thing that you have to carve out a lot of time for.

If you've worked, for example, if being outside gives you joy, maybe you don't have to

wait for the one hour walk that you can go on by yourself in a forest far away. But maybe

you can take your kids out into the garden for 20 minutes or 15 minutes at the end of

the day to just run around and put your feet on the ground, you know, so like, be a little

bit more open minded, take it a little easier, like it doesn't have to be this perfect joy

experience that you dream up on a Saturday morning that you're trying to live up to

perfectly five times a week, you know, I think allow yourself to be a little bit flexible and

creative with how you're approaching having a joy practice where even if it's five

minutes, and you go around the block one time, that's also better than nothing, you

know, but then make instead of, you know, walking around the block, resentful that you

didn't get the one hour walk, really try to enjoy the five minutes that you got, you know, I

think again, like this goes back to like the perfectionism that we live in. And I, I think you

might be you will probably be familiar with this. But I think out in the wellness world in

general, sometimes people are really exhausted from trying to keep up with their

wellness routine, or was eating the right way are getting all the exercise that they think

they should or people get really stressed out when they slept six and a half hours one

night instead of to perfect eight and then they distressed that they experience because

they didn't sleep the full eight hours actually ruins their day, much more than the one and

a half hours of sleep they missed out on you know, so I think it just just be a little bit

easier with yourself a little bit kinder, a little bit softer. And I think that's where joy can

really start to grow roots, you know, you're making your soil more fertile, more airy, then,

like really dense and hard all the time.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 19:28

That's so good. I think it's interesting, because, you know, I know for me, in order for me

to be successful in life, I have to schedule it on my calendar, I have to make sure that

there's time I have to and that's kind of my awareness and knowing. And for me, it's

singing like if I like when I sing, that's really my joy place. And so it's so if I schedule it,

and I know in that time it's going to happen, but yet that's also kind of my perfectionism

productivity but it also allows me to make sure that my day is not Not just filled with

tasks, but that the things that are important to me. I are, you know, this time is for

mindset, this time is for singing this time is for connecting with family this time is for

listening to sports commentary. So I have a number of these things kind of built into my

life, even though it still seems a little bit regimented. It allows me to then experience

those Joy things, but it sounds like it's a little bit of a of a push and pull.

20:25

Yeah, but and I also love what you're doing. I'm not against the scheduling it in and

carving out specific time for it. Like, I love that you're doing that. It's so great. I really like

it. But I think sometimes, like Sometimes life happens. And the other end to things that

you do for fun or for yourself, or a lot of times to things that go out the window first. So

what I'm saying is like, don't wait for like, Don't reserve joy for a time period of your day,

like see if you can find ways to weave it in, throughout and everywhere, you know. And

then of course, like for example, when example from my own life is one of the biggest

things that gives me joy that I realized when I really sat myself down and said, Okay,

Caroline, what really gives you joy, one of the biggest things that came up for me is one

on one time, I like I love being with all of my kids at the same time, but it's also kind of

stressful and overwhelming. And but what really fuels me up with energy. And what fills

me up with so much joy is when I get one on one time with each of them. But like you

said, like that requires that I plan? Who is going to take the other to like, What time am I

going to take just one of them on a little lunch date or on a little hike or something like

that like that requires planning. And so I'm all for it for that to carve out these moments

like these are the time periods in your life where you that are really dedicated to

something that brings you joy. I think that's also really important and really, really

wonderful, too.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 21:53

Nice. Yeah, I think it's, yeah, I've been noticing also like with my daughter, I've been

talking to her more about like, joy and fun and Because oftentimes, she doesn't realize

those things like you were saying people have a hard time figuring out what makes them

joyful. What's fun in their life. So what are some of the ways that they can do that? Is it

just like, when something happens? You write it down? Or how do people start creating

that list?

22:22

So one thing I've noticed, and actually through my podcast, and I didn't I wasn't aware of

this before, I always ask people who come on What brought you joy as a child and what

brings you joy now. And oftentimes the things that brought us joy when we were little

are the things that still bring us joy now, like so many people have said, I like running

around in a forest like forgetting about time and just getting lost and play with my

friends. And then they say as an adult, they'll still love being in nature going swimming in

the ocean, things like that. So I think sometimes asking yourself, What did you do?

Before you had all these rules in your mind about what joy is supposed to look like?

What did you just intuitively do? When you were a kid? Like were you a theater kid? Were

you a sporty kid? What really? What did you really like when you were little, I think that

can sometimes be a good starting point. And then like remembering moments from

your life that really felt effortless and peaceful and joyful, can be a good way to start

understanding your own your own things. And then even asking people like what do you

think you're just doing? Because you think you should? And I think when people are in

the right mindset, they can actually pinpoint a lot of things that they're doing purely from

an obligation perspective, because they think they should and because maybe it looks

good, or everyone's doing it, or that's how I'm going to be able to lose weight. And it's

also supposed to give me joy. And you can do things, you know, to to lose weight that

are also joyful, like how can you start to combine, again, combine these different areas

of your life to infuse to things that you're already doing with more joy.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 24:04

Yeah, we have to be careful about should otherwise we end up shooting all over

ourselves. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. This this is so rich. So what else would you like

to make sure that we discuss that we haven't discussed so far?

24:19

Yeah, so let me think about that. That's a really good question. What have we not

discussed that we should really say about joy?

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 24:29

I guess we can talk about let's talk about energy and joy. Because you had mentioned

that before about you ask that question, when people come to work with you. And so

what is that connection between joy and energy? I mean, I know you're just a little bit

with those Joy blockers. Those are kind of energy blockers too, but anything else you

want to say about that?

24:50

Yeah. So I think the wonderful thing that happens like having an active Joy practice is a

huge energy fuel for people like if you think about like, if you You start your day with

something that is truly joyful for you, you're going to have so much more energy, like I

see that through and through, and my clients, they have more energy. They also, it's

much easier to feel really clear on what you actually want in your life, it's much easier to

start to set boundaries when you know what brings you joy. And you have this sort of, in

a way, it's a self care practice to write having a joy practice is a self care practice. But I

think the more you elevate yourself through joy in your life, things become so intuitively

so obvious, like what you want to say yes and no to where you need to place a boundary.

And all of these things give you more energy. And I think the other one, that's a huge

one, when people start to have more joy in their life, their outlook becomes so much

more optimistic. And an optimistic mind will always have more energy than a

pessimistic mind. Like if you see problems everywhere, you will be exhausted. But if you

are in a more optimistic place in your life, and you feel hopeful, and you feel like there

are solutions abounding all around you, your energy level is completely going to shift.

You know, so I think those two are, are really big and important ones that like your joy

will boost your energy. And because again, it's the antithesis, like you said, to stress and

overwhelm, you know, and then it's also going to just completely change your outlook,

where you see solutions where you become more optimistic, where you have more

positive thoughts, your relationship to yourself changes in ways that is so beautiful that

I've seen in my clients over the last couple of years. Because you just see yourself in a

new light, when you're not always consumed by your to do list and by stress, and by all

the things that you need to get done in order to feel like you're doing a good enough job.

You know?

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 26:54

Yeah, I'm so glad you said that, you know, because you really shed some light on

something that I've been kind of struggling with right now for people who are going

through our program, people who are having more success are more optimistic. And so

I've been thinking about and we have a mindset practice that we have people do in the

program. But I've been trying to put my finger on what is it? Exactly, that's keeping some

of these people back? And I think you nailed that. I think that it is it is joy. And and it is

optimism.

27:22

Yeah, yeah. And there's beautiful ways in which we can learn to become more optimistic

too. And I think the same, and I think again, like joy and joy, joy and optimism for me are

always holding hands, you know. But if we really want to become more optimistic, it's

look at what you're making personal that isn't, look what you're making persistent, that

isn't and look what you're making pervasive. So those three things like if you can really

start to nail those down and untangle that, like, for example, this thing that happened at

work that went badly wasn't actually all my fault. Like, it's not a personal thing. It's not

going to impact the rest of my career forever. And it's not going to therefore now destroy

my marriage and all the other things that are around. So people who are pessimistic

have those three trademarks, they make things personal, persistent, and pervasive. And

people who are have a more optimistic mindset are able to see that this event where the

maybe they failed, doesn't mean that they're all bad, that it's going to last forever, and it's

going to impact all these other areas in their life. You know.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 28:32

That's so good. I want to touch on one other thing, and then we'll, we'll go ahead and

have you share your information with our audience. So one of the things that I that I get

from, you know, looking at the five Joy blockers is that it can be kind of overwhelming.

Right. And so, one of the things that I noticed in terms of like unaddressed relationship

issues that you mentioned, was, if you have a joy practice, and you change, you know, it's

this idea of, you know, when you're looking outside of yourself, and you see things that

you want to change most of the time, it means that you need to change, and you were

talking about setting boundaries, having more joy, essentially creating yourself the life

that you want. Consequently, your relationships are going to change a lot of these things

that are blocking if you set those boundaries, and you say, Okay, this is what I am willing

and not willing to do. This is where I'm in my joy. You're going to end up changing those

things around you, right?

29:31

Yeah. You mean like you're going to, you're going to tend to your relationships with other

people.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 29:37

Yeah, you can naturally energetically you're naturally going to change the relationships

that you have with people. When you change yourself for the better. You know, either

those relate those people will stay or they'll go, you know, they'll get there's there's going

to be more more contrast with you know, who you are and who they are. And so

consequently things are going to come to a head. You're going to have to you're going to

be forced Have some of those conversations and either move through them, or end up,

you know, getting some of the getting people out of your life who have different, who are

maybe more pessimistic, and aren't necessarily resonating at the same level that you

have become?

30:15

Absolutely, yeah, I mean, best case scenario, you inspire the people around you to also

have more joy in their life, you know, I think that joy, a lot of times can be really

contagious in the best way possible. You know, where if you have more joy, you're

actually giving people around you permission to engage in their joy, as well. You know, I

think that's the best case scenario. And then there's, there's other scenarios where

you're gonna see that some of these people, you who you might have in your life, are

actually holding you back and sucking you deeper into a state of negativity or stress or

overwhelm. And then sometimes in life, you make decisions where that's actually not

such a great fit and whether or not you cut those people out completely, or you just

distance yourself a little bit, or you only share certain parts with them, you know, that's

up to you. But we can always free to adjust a boundary, it doesn't necessarily mean you

just have to cut them all out. But we are free, we are in charge of the boundaries that we

place in our life. But we I think, have to be mindful and careful how we place them and

how we adjust them, so that we can be the best versions of ourselves, you know. But

yeah, relationships definitely, definitely impacted when when you change, you know, for

sure, for sure, my husband and I had both, I think have benefited so much from really me

starting this joy practice, because I've you know, I've asked him like, this is what I would

love to do for my daughter, like, I want to take one of my kids out for a special outing

once a week, how can we make this happen? And then what do you want to do for your

joy? You know, and I think men sometimes don't think about it as much in these terms

as women, or maybe I'm biased because I mostly work with women, but my doesn't, my

husband doesn't think about it. But he now does, he now does. And he is more aware of

the things that he actually needs to do for himself, to have these, these experiences and

moments of joy that are lightening him up that are allowing him to take a break from the

seriousness of life and all the tasks and obligations that we're, you know, walking

through every day, every single day. And so I think in our family, bringing joy into the

center of our lives has been, I think, a gift to all of us, and I can see it in my kids more

too, because I don't know what your experience is with your daughter, I have three little

kids, but it's so easy to overschedule them, right? Like we live in a society where they

come home from school, and every single day. It's like, oh, this activity, this activity. Now

this and now homework, and now sleep and it's exciting. I think it's really stressful. You

know, and so I think for us, really centering our efforts around joy in our family has

allowed us to step back a little bit and say, okay, like if we are going to be really mindful

around how we create our lives and this family and, and how we do things. And if we

really have this focus on joy, what does that mean about the activities and the things

that we say yes and no to? And how do we really arrange our life in a way where we have

active joy in our family? You know, I think it's been for us, it's been a really beautiful way

of approaching our even our schedule, you know, our life and our schedule. I love

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 33:27

that that's so important that I remember my wife saying, when my daughter was like,

when she was asking my daughter to kind of clean out some of the clothes that she'd

outgrown. You know, look at the piece of clothing and ask if it brings you joy. And you

can do that with most everything in your life, right and just be a lot more conscious

around what we're letting in Because oftentimes, we're just, we let in a whole bunch of

stuff. And then we're like, oh, what's going on? We're kind of swimming in it.

33:51

Exactly. Yeah. Marie Kondo method of organizing the closet. Does this spark joy?

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 33:58

Right. Right. Yeah. So last question. I know I said the other one was last, but this one

really, I think is the last. So you grew up in Germany? What is what is the difference

between you live in the States? What's the difference between joy in Germany or the

thoughts around joy in Germany versus the states? Just curious.

34:21

That's a it's a hard question because I came to the States when I was 16. So I still have

sort of like teenage my teenage impressions of everyday life. In Germany. One thing that

does always stand out to me is how in the US like, and I and I run into this all the time

with my my American clients is when they are struggling with something a lot of times

what they say is I just gotta stay busy. But really what you're saying is I just I just have to

distract myself from feeling my real feelings and but that being busy here is considered

a good thing. But in Germany, at least, and I think this is more like in maybe all of Europe

is when you tell someone like, Oh, I've been I've been really busy. I've been busy. Like,

how are you? I'm busy, that people are more like, oh, no, what's wrong? You're like, what

happened that you're so busy, you know that it's more like a, like, a reason for concern,

then Oh, good, you've been busy. You're good. You're busy, you know. So I think that

that's a big difference. And then I think in Europe, there is a greater respect between

work life and private life. My husband's from from Europe, too. He's from Sweden, and

he works for a Swedish company. And he does say that there is a greater respect to

Okay, well, now you gotta go and take care of your family, oh, you got to pick up your

kids from school. All right, like, Keiko, you know that there's more of that you don't

always have to prove yourself with your busyness or prove your worth, by how busy you

are. Right? I think that's a big difference. And then I mean, we can talk about like food

culture and all that, but people don't. In Europe, generally speaking, there's not so many

people who who grab and go food, like there's more of a more space. And I think,

therefore also more joy, around eating and sitting down and having a proper meal versus

eating really quickly on your desk, you know? So I do, I do think Joy shows up differently.

And then you know, people have much more vacation there. So I think like you have

more things to look forward to they're a little bit closer, closer by like, I think it's makes it

easier to go through a really stressful week, if you know that in two weeks, you have a

vacation coming up, you know. So I think there's, there's, my impression is, and I could

be wrong about this. But my impression is that there are people have more space in

their life. and Europe, like we do live in a hustle culture, and I do live outside of New

York. So I'm probably in the epicenter of it all. But I do I do think that people tend to have

more space. In Europe.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 36:52

Yeah, I think that's a really accurate commentary on American culture. And something

that, like you said, initially is, you know, this, these are, these are some of the stressors

that we have to be more conscious of, that we have to make different decisions about,

you know, am I going to buy into this sculpture? You know, which parts am I going to

keep? Which parts am I going to reject? What choices am I going to make for myself?

What do I want to? How do I want to live my life?

37:19

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I guess you asked me earlier, what my overall like my what my sort of

what's something that we haven't said yet, but and what I want listeners to really take

away from, from this conversation is really that you are in charge. You know, like, it's

really like, this is your life. Like you get to decide what you say no to what you say yes to,

you're allowed to change your mind, you're allowed to try on a different pattern and thing

and see if that works for you. And if it doesn't work for you, it's okay. It's no big deal. Like

you can try something else. You know, like, it's not that, even with like thinking about

having more joy, you're allowed to try something that you think might bring you joy, and

then you might try it, and you find out that it actually doesn't bring you joy, and you don't

like it, and that's okay, and then you try something else. And something new that it

doesn't have to be so strict, or so driven by perfectionism that you're allowed to kind of

just dabble around and be a butterfly for a little bit of time where you can just fly around

and try out new things, you know that. And just to see where, where you're most drawn

to. But at the ultimately, like you're in charge, you get to say how you want your life to go,

what you want to let into it and what you want to keep out of it. You're, you're in control

of that.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 38:30

So good. I hope everybody listening to this watching this gives themselves permission

to do exactly as you just said. Yeah. So great. So you work with people in a variety of

different ways. Right? Can you tell us a little bit about that?

38:47

Yeah. So I have we touched on this earlier, I have a 28 day journey called Easy joy, where

for 28 days, I send you one little idea for joy in the morning. And you just follow it for 28

days. And this is really meant to give you a vast variety of simple, easy, not expensive,

usually just completely for free activities that you can do in order to open up your joy

channels. I loved creating this challenge and was actually one of the challenges were so

many people wrote back afterwards and said, Oh my gosh, like this was just so

wonderful to direct my attention intentionally on something that is joyful. And I think it's

it's also good to try out a couple of different things just so you have more ideas, you

know, and like, can try out what actually brings you joy. So that's my, that's my challenge.

And then I also do private one on one coaching and mentoring around joy. But really, this

is for people who are who are ready to start a new chapter who understand that their life

the way they've been doing it the patterns and the behaviors and habits that they

currently have. are not serving them. And they're really ready to turn the page and start

new and want to live life in a more joyful and aligned way. So that's what the mentorship

is about. And then I also offer healing sessions. And they're basically a 90 minute deep

dives into a certain struggle that you have in your life where we provide healing. And it's

both. Like, it's visualizations, we do a little bit of creative work with colors and a little bit

of drawing. And also, of course, we talk. And so that's the healing sessions. And yeah,

and then there's my podcast called Joy class, which I would love for everyone to check

out. And yeah, that's it. You can find me on Instagram, I post stuff there, as well. So

yeah, that's

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 40:47

excellent. Yeah. And we'll drop your website link below and then you do have a free gift

for our audience.

40:53

I do. Yes. So my free gift is a it's a it's a PDF. It's an exercise where I guide you through

six steps that help you to to create your own joy practice.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 41:07

Excel. Yeah. Well, Caroline, this has been amazing. I so appreciate you coming on and

sharing your wisdom with our tribe.

41:15

Thank you so much, Evan.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 41:19

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Thanks for being part of my community. Just a reminder, this podcast is for educational

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medical or other professional advice or services. Thanks for listening, and have an

amazing day.