Everyday Psychedelics: From Lonely Neurons to Mitochondrial Healing

Episode 82:

Everyday Psychedelics: From Lonely Neurons to Mitochondrial Healing with Maya

Shetreat, MD and Evan H. Hirsch, MD

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 00:08

Hey everybody, welcome back to the energy MD podcast, where we help people with

chronic fatigue MECFS long COVID M casts achieve the life that they deserve. So super

excited to talk with my good friend Maya she treat we've known each other for several

years now. And we're going to be talking today about a number of different things, but

psychedelics, energy, quantum. And yeah, I'm really excited. So let's learn a little bit

about Dr. Shetreat. So she is a neurologist, herbalist, urban farmer and author of The Dirt

cure, and the master plant experience the science, safety and sacred ceremony of

psychedelics. She has been featured in The New York Times, The Telegraph, NPR, Sky

News, The Dr. Oz Show and more. Dr. Maya is the founder of the terrain Institute, where

she teaches earth based programs for transformational healing, including professional

training programs for psychedelic assisted approaches. She works in studies with

indigenous communities and healers from around the world. And as a lifelong student

of ethnobotany, plant healing and the sacred. Dr. Maya, thanks so much for joining me

today.

Maya Shetreat, MD 01:21

It is my pleasure to be here.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 01:25

So let's start off with kind of like how you got into psychedelics, what was that journey

like for you?

Maya Shetreat, MD 01:34

I always like to say that I I got into psychedelic I was pulled into psychedelics kicking

and screaming. I actually I actually was traveling to Ecuador, because I had had an

experience with my son, where he was very sick. So we had actually had had mold in our

New York City apartment, and he was very, he was the canary. You know, I didn't feel

well, everybody didn't feel well. But he my little guy was was the canary in the coal mine.

And he was up every single night not able to breathe. And so there's just no way we

could ignore, right? Like you always kind of want to avoid whatever we didn't at first

realize we had mold. But then we did. And we left, we left the apartment for five months,

lived somewhere else, they gutted all of the areas that had mold. And had to do all kinds

of, you know, repairs, but it was gutted down to the studs, we move back in five months

later, it'll all been tested had been cleaned with like toothbrushes, we had gotten rid of all

the upholstered furniture, I mean, some of your listeners, I'm sure, and you know how

deep it can be to have to clean up after mold. So like no stuffed animals, you know, all

the clothes had been cleaned the whole gamut. And we moved back in. And two weeks

later, my son had a seizure in the bathroom that had been the epicenter of the mold. But

there was no mold in that bathroom it was literally had been cleaned to the studs, like

everything, tiles, everything was brand new. And it was really obviously very scary. Here I

am an adult and pediatric neurologist right. And I'm sitting there holding my my little

guy, who at the time was seven. And you know, we had done everything. And he was on

all the supplements, he was on all the diet he was on, you know, I did all that I was

treating people from all around the world. And I was like pretty, you know, confident in

my abilities. And just, you know, there was this moment of holding him and knowing like

with my whole being that I did not have the tools to help them I knew this was like

something, something energetic, right? Something that was beyond the physical or the

mental or any of the things that I really knew how to help. And I just knew I was going to

have to kind of go on a journey to find what he needed. And so I actually reached out to

a few teachers and I won't get into the story. But you know, there are these stories where

there are these teachers who sort of turn you away, right? Like, there was a lot of this

like you get turned away, you have to go back ask again, they turn you away again, you

have to write that's like it was very like mythical kind of story. And um, ultimately, I found

my way to a fourth generation shaman, who from Ecuador, who also had a PhD and

ethnobotany, working with Master plants. And she saw my son, she happened to be in

the US. She saw my son did it healing on him that was so profound. And I said I'd really

like to study with you. Is there any way I could learn with you and she basically invited

me on this trip to Ecuador, which is All materialized in the very last second, which is a

very like South American thing is like time is not like time up here and control controlling

people, ideas that you can control your time no also. But I found myself on this trip to

Ecuador, I didn't know anybody on this trip, it was a group of people. I went by myself, I

didn't speak Spanish, I was like going to this strange place for a few weeks away from

my family for the first time for all that time. And on this trip, we were supposed to be

learning about these powerful plants among other healing approaches. And they never

said anything about oh, we're going to engage with psychedelic master plants. I thought

we'd learn about them. But no, in fact, there were some experiences of ingesting them

also, which was a surprise to me. And I had this very profound experience, actually, with

the San Pedro cactus. Very unexpected. And it actually this was over a decade ago, you

know, my son is now a hell Hardy 18 year old guy, six, three in college, you know, totally

healthy. He just ran a big Spartan Race where he, you know, was like, I don't know, 15

miles or something. But But I, I came back with this new understanding about

indigenous healing approaches, and particularly master plants, these very powerful

plants, which I know we'll talk about more. And, you know, I'm still unpacking what

happened on that trip well over a decade later.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 06:44

Magical. So it seems like with everybody that I see, has some sort of trauma. You know,

oftentimes, when people hear that word, they think that it's, it has to be something

severe. But it can be, you know, something even what would be considered as mild

rejection of a peer group as opposed to some sort of sexual abuse. But how does how

does trauma relate to cellular memory, and some of these health issues that people

have?

07:21

So you know, I think you bring up a really important point, which is that they're sort of

what we call Big T trauma and little T trauma. And, you know, big T trauma, we have

these things called aces adverse childhood events, as one example, a lot of those

traumatic events do happen in childhood, but obviously, it can happen later in life as

well. And I can explain why the ones in childhood are so wildly important and why they

imprint in a certain way, it actually has to do with these things called critical periods.

And they're these windows of plasticity, where we're very, very, very fertile and open to

any event that happens to like imprint itself. And that happens more in childhood than

any other time in life, except, for example, with psychedelics and master plants, so we

can get more into that later. But this idea of trauma, what happens is that either you can

have the big T trauma, like, you know, abandonment, or incarceration of someone in your

family or addiction, or abuse, you know, physical, mental, sexual, and so on, right. And,

and sadly, these are actually very common things they're not, they're not uncommon for

people to experience, but then they're also the little T traumas, as you say, which are

right like bullying, right, or having, like, let's say, a care provider who doesn't pick you up

on time, every day after school. And so you're like, you know, like little things that you

wouldn't even be able to talk about, and different people experienced those differently,

too. So, you know, even within a family, one person, things might roll right off their back,

and other person might really, really experienced those as acute, difficult, awful

experiences. And what happens is, whether it's a physical event, whether it's an

emotional, mental or spiritual event, your cells don't really know, right? Your cells just

remember being put into danger, right? And so there's this concept of cell danger,

cellular memory is this, this kind of posture that the cell takes by whatever it is that

happens, whatever instigator of whatever kind, the cell goes into danger mode. And

what happens then is, it expresses that oftentimes in physical or mental ways. So we

think, Oh, this is a physical problem, but it doesn't have to be it can be something

mental, emotional, even spiritual. That happens that's, you know, really uncomfortable

for a child or an adult and then The cells remember that in this way and express it then

as kind of danger basically all the time. And that can look like autoimmunity. It can look

like chronic fatigue, it can look like migraines, it can look like you know, any other kind of

chronic pain issue can look like allergies, terrible allergies, can look like depression,

OCD, right, all of these conditions that we think of as, you know, we want to get really

kind of physiologic about and say, Oh, yes, like this is what's happening in the body. But

kind of thinking about the instigator, it can be something that we don't even realize

because cells speak the language of the body, right? The physical body, but they

understand physical, mental, emotional and spiritual insults.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 10:54

Okay, that makes sense. So then coming back to kind of the psychedelics and the use of

psychedelics in clinical practice, there's been definitely a wave, you know, it was, it's

obviously much different than what we learned about in medical school. Why why are

people are now talking about as like as legitimate treatments?

11:16

Yeah, so, you know, to answer that, we have to think a little bit about what happened in

the 50s and 60s. And I know, if you have any people of the boomer generation, for

example, like, you know, automatically they hear about psychedelics, and are thinking

you know, about what happened, and that trips, and you know, people jumping out of

windows and this kind of stuff. And so, in fact, a lot of people don't know that in the

1950s. And 60s, there were very, very promising studies going on looking at things like

depression and OCD, using psychedelics. And then what happened is, there was sort of

this free for all, where there wasn't really appropriate support, but also, I would say,

respect for the power of what these you know, let's say in the case of like, mushrooms

are such, like what these master plants can do. And so there weren't a lot of problems,

you know, people were having bad experiences, they weren't, they weren't preparing, they

weren't supported, etc. So, you know, so that's the past, and they got, you know,

outlawed for many reasons, including very political things. And what we've seen now is

that there have been such promising studies done on psychedelics, that every major

academic center in the world now has psychedelic research ongoing, including

psychedelic centers at places like Johns Hopkins, and NYU, and Stanford, and the

Imperial College of London. So we're seeing papers coming out almost every week,

looking at mostly large doses, but we can talk more later about different ways of dosing.

But like, you know, in other words, like one dose of mushrooms, let's say of these, you

know, Salafi mushrooms are popularly known as magic mushrooms, with support

before, during after, and that's important, because that's part of every single study that's

been done. One dose can interrupt life long depression that has been refractory to every

other treatment out there. One dose can interrupt lifelong addiction. And we're talking

about smoking, we're talking about alcohol and with certain psychedelics, like EBO got,

actually even to heroin or meth are things that are actually incredibly addictive and very

difficult for people to get off of. Never look at it again. So we're seeing and we're seeing

that with OCD, we're seeing that actually even studies with dementia, and a lot of other

kinds of conditions that we think of as being very, very difficult to treat. We're seeing

now that psychedelics in these studies with support before during after are so effective

that there is nothing out there that competes with this and this is just with one dose,

right? We think of you have to take pharmaceuticals lifelong or you have to, or even with

supplements, right? And it's not to say these replace, you know, taking good care of

yourself and being you know, to eating the right foods and exercising and all those

things. But but this is, you know, an incredible way to interrupt that cellular memory and

we can talk about how

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 15:01

So, before people listening to this right now, they're about ready to shut this off, and

they're gonna go run out and find psychedelics as soon as they can. Right. So what are

some of the things that they have to look for some caveats, or some concerns about

going ahead and doing that right now?

15:18

Yeah, there are many. The first is I don't think that big doses of psychedelics are for

everybody all the time. So, you know, the first thing I would say is, you know, this isn't like

a should Oh, run out and do this thing. This is really about, you know, being being

educated. And, you know, I'm not a proponent, in fact, of everybody going out and doing

psychedelics, there are people who think, Oh, the world would be the most wonderful

place, if everybody just did that, I don't actually think that's necessarily true. Because,

you know, humans are humans, like, nothing is just going to make everything perfect.

But that said, there's also you know, if you have a history of psychosis, you know, or a

family history of psychosis, that is contraindication. Right now, at least. There's also

other kinds of issues, certain medications that might be contraindication. So it's really

important to have someone who is psychedelic informed to be able to tell you if you're a

good candidate from a safety standpoint. And then, of course, there are parts of the

country where this is legal, there are parts of the country where this has decriminalized.

And there are parts of the country where this is still not legal. So that's another very

important part of this is to know about what your city or state or country depending on

where you are in the world, what they say, right about engaging with psychedelics. So

that's very important. And then of course, having the right support and knowing what

you're getting. Right, you don't want to just, you know, find something on the dark web,

right? There have been people who come to me and say, Oh, I know, I could just know,

right, we want to be really intentional. And this is both from a physical safety standpoint,

right? A legality standpoint. And also, from a spiritual standpoint, from an intention

standpoint, going with care, with attention with intention. So you know, from my

standpoint, don't run out, you know, and like, right, like Google, but heart start, you know,

like, I wrote a book, all about this with a lot of science, a lot of information, a lot of

history, a lot of lore. So like, you can start with something like that. Or just start, you

know, for me, like I started growing San Pedro cactus, right, because I got back from

that trip. And I was like, wow, I, I really want to know this, this master plan better. And it's

totally legal to grow San Pedro cactus, I don't ingest I don't ingest my plants. I grow, I

grow them because that's the relationship, right. So it's like building this relationship.

And there's a lot of ways to do that is a way to sort of start to get to know whether

you're reading about it, whether you're looking at pictures, whether you're just simmering

with it, right, whether you're growing the plant, there are ways to engage, and build the

relationship and see if this is really the right, move for you.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 18:30

Interesting. Out here in the Pacific Northwest, we have beautiful forests that have lots of

mushrooms. And so people oftentimes will say, Well, I'm gonna go out there, and I'm

gonna find some of these psychedelic mushrooms. And another warning is that every

year people end up with liver damage and potentially death, because they've eaten the

wrong mushroom. So you definitely have to know what you're doing. So then starting off

with reading your book, and then are there resources in the book on like, where to go to

get good sources?

19:03

Um, well, I have trainings for that, you know, and I offer a lot people in my community, I

give a lot of free guidance and free resources because, you know, obviously, because it's

variably legal or decriminalized across the country and across the world. I don't want to

just like throw people, you know, a bunch of links, right? But if people reach out to me,

I'm always happy to help and guide and you know, that's that's a really I think, important

part, as this is becoming widely decriminalized. Like now we have, you know,

Washington DC, many cities in California, including Oakland, San Francisco, the whole

state of Oregon, Denver, Colorado, I think Ann Arbor, Michigan and more and more, you

know, the state of Connecticut is now about to do a whole study of of law. allowing

them for medical purposes. So we're, I think, going to see this within two years, really, I

think, much, much, much more available in in mainstream settings than we probably can

even imagine. I think it's rolling out even much more quickly than cannabis did. Well,

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 20:19

very exciting. So you've kind of mentioned the word psychedelic. You've mentioned the

word master plant. Can you talk to us a little bit about the difference? Hmm.

20:31

So master plants are actually an indigenous term. And they are basically describing

powerful plants, but it could be Flora Fauna, fungi, right. Like it could be mushrooms, it

could be plants. It encompasses that whole category. Powerful plants that alter our

consciousness and behavior. Now, people might automatically be thinking psychedelics,

but in fact, some master plants include coffee, right, the coffee plant. Another master

plan is the cacao plant, right, which makes chocolate. Another master plant is the

tobacco plant, right. So these are our powerful plants that change the way we behave,

right? Think about what people are willing to do for their morning coffee or to get their

chocolate fix, right, so. So those are all master plants. So powerful plants are masters.

psychedelics are always masters, but not all masters are psychedelic. Does that make

sense? So the master plant includes under the umbrella plants like the Ayahuasca vine,

the San Pedro cactus, peyote, mushrooms, the philosophy mushrooms, the Amanita,

etc. There's many, many Bolga many more that I write about in my book. But these are

sort of the most popular right now the most popular psychedelic plants that people

know about. And, and the idea of these master plants is in fact that they are masters

and they transmit ancient knowledge through through them to us that instruct us in a

sense on how to operate in the world, and how to be human beings. Right. And there's a

lot of theories out there right now about how they've played a role in even evolution. You

know, one of the things I write about in the book that I thought was, was very surprising

to me in my research was about cave art. So I was looking back at the history of how

master plants have been used over the course of history. And I was surprised to

discover because I learned, I learned in fifth grade or whenever it was, you know, about,

like, Caveman and cave art. I was like this Oh, it's that like primitive art that people drew

because they didn't know how to draw better. And they didn't have words. And, you

know, talked about what they do every day in caveman times, sort of, I think what most

of us were taught, right. And it turns out, actually, that cave art is very rarely, at the

opening of caves, which is where most people would have been living and operating,

they are actually and this is why we still discover cave art to this day. Most cave art is

very, very, very deep in caves. Low light, no light, low oxygen, in fact, you know, kind of

this like ceremonial space, that it turns out was totally not where people would have

lived but where they might have gone for altered consciousness experiences. And it

turns out, first of all, that many of the drawings were done by women, that's interesting.

And they know this from the hand size and other things. But in fact, also a lot of those

drawings are were shamanic drawings, like half human, half animal, and you know,

different kinds of ideas like that, that were done probably in the dark. And were part of

visions, and many of them incorporate mushrooms or cacti, or other known master

plants, including sometimes they even find DNA evidence in those areas of master

plants like deterra, or, you know, San Pedro or other kinds of cacti or plants. So, it's very

interesting, right, that there was this sort of probably even then, secret or off the radar

kind of ceremonial practice with these plants that were that's long standing probably

since the beginning of time. Wow.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 24:47

Fascinating. So when we say psychedelic, what is that? What is? What's the definition of

that word? What are the changes I guess? Yeah. How would you define it?

25:01

Yeah, that's a great question. Because you know, psychedelic is not something like when

I learned with indigenous teachers, like the word psychedelic is like what, because this

is a kind of invented word of, you know, that kind of came about in like the 50s and 60s.

And what it describes is these, you know, classically speaking, it is, from an experiential

standpoint, something that alters reality, such that you kind of can't tell the difference

between the vision and the reality, you know, reality, right. But from the standpoint of

neuroscience, these are classically okay. And there are, of course, exceptions to

everything. They activate a certain serotonin receptor, the five HTT to a receptor in the

brain and in the body. And that kind of goes along with right there can be nausea, there

can be vomiting, and GI symptoms, along with these altered states of consciousness.

So activating that particular receptor is considered one of the definitions for classical

psychedelics.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 26:18

Interesting. And so then what's happening physiologically, when somebody consumes

one of these plants, I

26:26

mean, I want to tell you, and I say this, at the very beginning of the chapter on the

science is, you know, I've interviewed over 100, researchers and others who are very

knowledgeable about psychedelics over the past many years. And even the top

scientists who have published the most in the most prestigious journals from the most

prestigious institutions, basically say, we really don't know that much about why they

work the way they work. But I can tell you a lot about what we do know. So I want to just

start by saying, you know, a lot of times a cell that is in a cell danger mode, right, let's

say someone who is very depressed, we know that their neurons are actually less

connected to each other, then the neurons of someone who's not depressed, they're

literally lonely neurons. Okay, think about it like that. And this actually even happens in a

in a cell that is in danger mode. It even happens on a mitochondrial level, right? So

there's a way in which our mitochondria, we think, probably if you know anything about

mitochondria, these energy makers of the cell, and I assume your listeners do that, you

know, like, if you know anything about what they look like, it's like I learned this in, you

know, high school biology or something, and they all look, you know, whatever they look

like, but in fact, mitochondria change structure, they're very individual. And in cell

danger, mitochondria actually go into this meatball mode. So normal mitochondria are

branch spaghetti. They are elongated, and they are branched. They're touching one

another, and they're communal. They exchange information, they exchange nutrients,

they release waste, they're very, very communal. And that's a healthy mitochondria. And

then, in a in a danger mode, mitochondria balled up into meatballs, so they don't

communicate in the same way, they actually don't exchange nutrients as easily, they

don't release waste as easily, they're not exchanging the information in the same way.

So So thinking about ourselves as being I mean, right, it's like, quarantine, right? They go

into this sort of isolation mode, when they're in danger. And anybody who has

something like chronic fatigue, or major depression, or any number of other chronic

conditions are likely to have their cells more in that kind of situation, what psychedelics

do, and this happens on in many different ways, and on many different levels. They

actually DMT, which is a component of many psychedelics acts as an indirect

antioxidant, which is protective of the mitochondria, it's very directly actually active at

that level. So that's number one. Number two, they actually increase plasticity of the

neurons and of the cells in general so that, you know, the mitochondria become more

branched and communal. And the, and the cells, the neurons, let's say, become more

connected. So new synapses formed between neurons. And this kind of plasticity, as I

was saying, In the beginning, right? We have these window periods in childhood, where

these events happen. And we never have quite that plasticity level again, in life. We, we

do have plasticity. So when I was in medical school, and when I was even in my

neurology training, which I promise wasn't that long ago. I mean, it was not yesterday,

but you know, we were told, yeah, you You know, childhood, maybe through teenage

years, there's plus the chance for plasticity and new brain connections and so on. But

after that, you know, nothing. We now know that our brains change and grow. And we,

we have plasticity throughout our lives, that and there are things that we can do to

enhance that, you know, that don't involve psychedelics at all. But what we do know is

that those window periods, those critical periods of plasticity, do not repeat later in life.

So that's good news and bad news, right? It means that in childhood, the events that are

negative for us or positive are going to imprint and, and stick with us for a very, very long

time. It means that when we have difficult experiences in adulthood, they don't tend to

be as imprinted on us. But with psychedelics, this is goes back to that idea of cellular

memory, psychedelics, open critical periods of plasticity again, and allow us to make

those new connections, both between neurons, but also between different parts of the

brain that don't normally communicate with one another. So it allows us to have these

kinds of experiences of open mindedness and really, awareness and learning. That is

very, very important. And I want to give you an example, that I think is so interesting. So

most of the time, we think when we go into a new situation, right, like, like, we go into a

room full of people, we think we're seeing every detail, right? We're like, okay, you know,

there's the lady in the yellowed dress, and there's a guy wearing a hat. And, you know,

you see all the things, there's like a blue wall, etc. Okay, so it turns out, we actually don't

see very many details at all, what we do, and this is part of what our brain does for

survival. The default mode network is responsible for this, we go into a new room, let's

say filled with people, and we pick out a few details only everything else we fill in from

past experience, okay, and this phenomenon is called predictive coding. And it's great,

like I said, for survival, because if, you know, you don't want to wait and be like, Oh, my

God, you know, there's a tiger waiting to pounce on me, you know, oh, like, look at the

teeth, look at the growling look at the Hangout, right? You don't have time for that. So So

that's important, right. And, of course, we want to live from the wisdom of our

experiences. But the problem is that sometimes, if we once had a very scary experience,

let's say, or unpleasant or something, and that kind of imprinted on us, that can be what

we fill into every new situation. Right? Those are the details from past experience that

we can be filling in. And so then we think everything is going to have that same, you

know, tone, let's say, right, so if we're fearful or anxious, or if we're very depressed, or if

we, you know, feel like we don't make friends or whatever, we're constantly kind of

predicting, predicting that and projecting that onto present moments when really, we

don't always need to, because that doesn't allow us to change. So what psychedelics do

on that kind of grander scale, is they allow us to shut down take offline, the default

mode network responsible for that predictive coding for periods of time, and so that we

can see reality in a very different way, without all of that coloring of past experience.

And the last thing I'll say about what psychedelics do in larger doses, but I think in

smaller doses, too. I do micro dosing coaching with people and quantum dosing

coaching. So I've seen this in all different doses is something called the mystical

experience. And that sounds very, you know, gooey, but in fact, there are scientific

studies, right, there's definitions of what makes the mystical experience. And that is

actually what the major academic institutions are looking at as what is the most

transformative about a psychedelic experience is actually having that quote, unquote,

mystical experience where you feel that sense of oneness and less like you are separate

from the rest of the world and more like everything around you is alive and connected,

and you know that you are part of this. One, one consciousness, that kind of experience

is considered a very important element of how psychedelics heal us.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 34:36

And so that mystical experience is essentially that creating that critical period or

opening that opening,

34:43

the mystical experience is an element of that the critical period of plasticity is open. And

I want to say this is where support preparation integration, having someone who knows

how to do this and guide this is very important because when you open those periods of

plasticity, anything can happen, right? something negative happens again, you don't

want to create circumstances that are are not supported, you want to be in like, you

want to have all the pieces that can make that opening of that window, write new new

memories that are good memories for yourselves, right? So we can always control how

an experience goes. And in fact, I will say, just because, you know, things come up that

are painful or difficult, which does happen. And I think happens often, right? Not like

horrible nightmare experiences, but difficult things come up. Because we're shutting

down this part of ourselves, that kind of is our ego that protects us from all these old

memories and different things. So people will say like, oh, you know, this thing that my

mother did, or this experience that I had, like, I actually see truth about it hurts. But I see

that, I see that. You know, I have compassion for everything around that. Like, I don't feel

like the kind of pain I felt right, like, so the experiences that can come up, it's not all like

unicorns and rainbows, right? When we say mystical experience, it sounds really

wonderful. And those aspects can be very wonderful. But then there are these other

aspects, which is things that make us sad, or are painful memories, or old traumas that

can come up to and being supported through that is exactly how you use these kinds of

periods of plasticity that you're opening, to re boot right to rewrite those memories and

understand them, right, I call it meaning making. It's understanding, right that these

events happened, nothing we can do to change that. But when we make meaning of

them, and live from the wisdom of that, it can change everything for us.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 37:08

Yeah, I can't remember where it's from might be Buddhism, where the idea that all of

suffering comes from meaning making. Especially Well, when we when we make the

meaning something that's not necessarily supportive. So you mentioned a little bit

about micro dosing, quantum dosing, macro dosing, tripping? Can you kind of speak a

little bit to this? Like, do you have to adapt a trip to get the benefits because you were

talking about with some of the research that they were talking about one dose, I guess,

let's start, let's actually start there. So the one dose in the research, how high were those

doses?

37:50

They varied, you know, so and it depends obviously, on what's being worked with in a

study. But the idea of a macro dose is it is a dose that is large enough to instigate this

potentially mystical experience. You know, so it puts you out of commission, more or

less, right? That's this macro dose experience, what people popularly call tripping, or you

know, going on a journey or something like that. And one reason that that has been the

most studied way of engaging with psychedelics to date is because, and I discussed

this actually, with some researchers, is because there's a beginning, a middle and an

end, right. So in other words, you can help prepare people beforehand, they come in that

day, you do this experience that might last five hours, six hours, whatever, and then they

can stay for the whole day. And then you know, you have follow up appointments after

they go home. And that works very well for research studies. Micro dosing, on the other

hand, is taking what we call a sub psychedelic dose. And what that means is, it's a small

dose, and you might take it over, not just you know, one time but over, months, even, and,

you know, every couple of days, let's say, and you can drive, you can work, you can

parent, your kids, you can do life, you get a lot of the plasticity benefits. And you even

can have, you know, you can even have a sense of like some people will describe a

sense of euphoria. People certainly will experience like, lots of synchronicities and sort

of notice things differently, but they are not altered in a way that they can't operate in

everyday life. That's less studied because as these researchers were telling me at Johns

Hopkins, you they don't they can't right now send these out into the world so easily. So

they they would have to call people in and say Okay, today are micro dosing and sit here

in our clinic. For the whole entire day, while we watch you, right, people are not going to

like give up every few days to just sit in the clinic for micro dosing. So, but micro dosing

we are seeing in early studies, and certainly in self reporting, which are a lot of studies

now, where they're actually talking to people who are, you know, being surveyed, people

experience, better energy, less depression, they actually, and this is interesting, less

need for, like substances they might rely on, right, like cannabis or alcohol or things.

They're like, yeah, I didn't feel I needed that. They feel more social, they feel also, and

this was very interesting to in these studies, more motivated to take good care of their

bodies. I thought that was so interesting that this is what these masterplans in these

studies would, kind of the effect that they would have is like, yeah, I wanted to exercise

and I wanted to, like sleep to get good sleep, and I wanted to, like eat well, like things

that you know, you know, kind of recognizing, like the sacredness of the body, right, like,

so I. So micro dosing is very profound, and it's being looked at now for everything from

chronic pain, to chronic fatigue, to dementia, to Parkinson's, to, you know, all different

kinds of mental health disorders. And I think that is going to end up being probably one

of the big ways that people are engaging with psychedelics. And then there's quantum

dosing. Quantum dosing is interesting, because it's very much part of the indigenous

approach, like for indigenous healers, for example. There are these, you know, so for

indigenous people, Master plants are beings, they're teachers, and they study with them.

And then eventually, they don't need to ever ingest them again. Because they, they have

the teachings in a sense, and they have something like, for example, in Iowa, Tosca iOS

ghettos, they're called, they actually have these melodies that they sang called ethos,

and the ICA, those are considered vibrational transmissions from the Ayahuasca vine.

So it's considered medicine equal in potency, to drinking, the actual brew. And anyone

who's ever been in an Ayahuasca ceremony can attest to the fact that when you hear

these EGOT us and there are different ones for different points in the ceremony, they

can make you feel like crying or like vomiting, or like coming back into your body and

feeling calm, like each of them has their their medicine in a sense, and the physiologic

vibrational impact on the body. So this idea of vibrational or quantum dosing is very

standard and accepted in indigenous science. And we can talk about actually how

indigenous science is very advanced, we're kind of catching up with it now, almost 70 to

80% of pharmaceuticals that we use right now, in western medicine, were derived from

people going to indigenous communities, let's say in South America and the jungle and

actually learning from people there what the plants do, because imagine there's like

100,000 200,000 Different plants that all look very similar in the jungle. So if they didn't

know from the actual indigenous people, which plant did what I mean, they could spend,

you know, how long just like trying to figure it out by, you know, trial and error. And that's

what we have now we have synthetic versions of plants and medicines that indigenous

people actually shared with us, that's the majority of what we have. But in this case,

quantum dosing is actually a vibrational dose of a master plan. So that could be as I

said earlier, right could be growing the plant could be a way that you develop that

vibrational kind of experience. It could be listening to egos, it could be even ingesting.

So you know, we have these quantum drops, where they are what we call ceremony in a

bottle, and they're made in a ceremonial way, with actually music of the plants, which is

a device that measures the frequency and vibration of the plant and translates it into

music. And we create these in this ceremonial way. And then make them into drops

essentially into a liquid that people can take in their mouths. But it's legal, it's safe, it's

fine for people who are sober or children or pregnant or medically sensitive or people for

whom psychedelics would not be a good option or even for people who want to prepare

or consider taking psychedelics or are integrating and experience. So that's another way

that people can engage with psychedelics is through Quantum dosing, which also, you

know, we could talk about the physiology, there's actually very interesting physiology

about something called sensory gating that allows us to become more attuned and

sensitive to our environment, or less attuned and sensitive to our environment. And

that's part of what quantum dosing helps us to modulate.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 45:32

Very interesting. So you're referring to the quantum drops that you have created? Yes.

And so what, what plants are resonant in here.

45:45

So we have three right now that are available. One is the grandmother and grandmother

is made from the Ayahuasca vine. So I grow a 10 year old Iosco vine. And I don't ingest

as I said, my plants. And so this is made in partnership with these, with this Ayahuasca

vine, then there's the grandfather, and that's made from San Pedro cactus. So with right

with the San Pedro cactus in partnership, not with any plant matter inside, and then the

children are made with the mushrooms, sloths to be mushrooms.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 46:27

Very cool. And so what can somebody expect to experience when consuming these

drops?

46:34

So, as with psychedelics, and master plants, in general, part of the experience is that we

don't exactly know right part of the medicine is, is that we don't exactly know what each

person will need and how they will experience it. However, I can say, people are not

going to trip, they're not going to be out of commission. Right? That's number one.

Number two is what people have described is, and it depends, each of them has a

different kind of experience. And anyone who buys them gets a guide of the different

kinds of energies, let's say, or the different kinds of experiences people have. So a

mutual friend of ours, I won't say, who had been taking the children, and he was

interviewing me for something just like this. And the minute I got on, he said, I, I want to

tell you, I've been dancing every day, for the past several weeks. And I said, oh, like that's

nice. He said, No, no, no, you don't understand, I had no idea I would wake up in the

morning. And I would just start dancing, like I put on music and I start dancing, I didn't

have coffee, I didn't shower, I didn't get dressed. He's like, and then I realized I had just

started taking the children at the time that began. And I basically felt this, like he would

wake up with this sense of joy, right? So each of them has their own kind of way of

engaging with us. So it can be like uplifting, euphoric inner child work, it's very important,

right? There's, with the grandmother, there can be a lot about engaging with the mother

wound, and finding kind of your own lineage, like going into lineage kind of healing. So

that's really big. And I will say also, that a lot of practitioners who are using these are

finding them, whether they're doctors or therapists, or using them with patients or

clients and finding that they're seeing people make really significant leaps in their

therapies, whether it be medical or, you know, mental health.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 48:47

Excellent. So it's the kind of thing that you could take every day, and it wouldn't interrupt

or interfere with your work or parenting and some of those things you mentioned.

48:58

Yeah, I think what I've what I've heard, right, so we've been getting just hundreds of

testimonials now, and you know, people actually feel they're they parent better, because

they're in a more grounded and centered place. So yes, absolutely. You know, people

don't have to take them daily, but I have found that they are probably the most effective

if people are really looking for like, experiencing kind of the full impact and shift. Taking

them daily is a great way to do that. But some people will take them, you know, here and

there and experience them that way. And any of those things are, you know, available to

us and you know, some people take one and just go with that one. Some people will

switch it some people take three or three. So, you know, I think it depends on what the

person is you Before you know what kind of shifts and what kind of openings,

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 50:04

Gotcha, okay, and so there's information on your website to determine to help people

determine which one might be a good fit for them.

50:12

Well, so usually we people will get a set of three and work with them that way, and they

get at the same time that they're purchasing, they get a guide, so they know how to

engage with each of them, and which they might want to start with, and how I give them

a lot of sample regimens that they can work with.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 50:31

Excellent. And for people who are more sensitive, like M cast mast cell activation, or

something like that, where they react to foods and sometimes to other plants, do you

find that they need to stop start with drops, instead of going to a full dropper full initially,

or what's been your experience.

50:51

Um, so I think actually, that quantum dosing is the perfect way, for people who have

those kinds of conditions that like, highly sensitive people do the best with quantum

dosing, even though it's potent, it's very, very gentle, because it's made a vibration, right,

rather than having lots of different compounds within it. But I always recommend for

someone who's very sensitive to try one drop, you know, and you can even and this is

something like I learned from homeopaths, you know, decades ago is, you know, sleep

with it next to your bed, put it in a beautiful place, I always say because something that's

vibrational, you want to, like, always support that by, you know, putting it next to plants,

or, you know, in a beautiful spot, or if people keep an altar or anything like that, like, have

your quantum drops in a place like that. And then, you know, be with it a little bit, right.

And that I think, for people with M casts and similar conditions, what I've seen over the

years, is that they, they need to bring things very gently into their field, if I if that makes

sense. And so starting with a drop, or even starting just by wearing it in their pocket for

the day, and then working their way up is perfectly fine. But we have not seen people be

sensitive to these in terms of having reactions to the the contents.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 52:23

Excellent. And so, you know, if you were to rub a crystal ball and say, what's going to

happen here in the near future, do you think that psychedelics are going to be part of

become part of mainstream medicine?

52:39

I think that I do think that psychedelics are. We can't ignore what they have to offer. And

it's just so different than anything we have available to help people right now. So I do

think that they are very much going to become part of mainstream medicine. And that's

actually why we're doing a training for psychedelic informed practitioners is because

that's actually one of the hurdles is having people who are educated and can really offer

these in an informed way to their patients and clients that's considered actually

nationally, one of like, our biggest issues in terms of making this available. But I do think

that there'll be available I think, you know, I think, as with everything in mainstream

medicine, there are going to be hiccups. So that's part of why I wrote my book was so

that people can be educated and know how to think about these know what they can

expect what they can't expect. You know, I always say like psychedelics are not a magic

pill. They are, they are a window or a door, right? They, they're like a portal, and they open

certain possibilities to us. And then we have to walk through that door, ultimately. So I

want people to be very well informed. And it's a book for anybody. I mean, I think it's

great for practitioners. But it's also I'm told, very readable, for for anybody who even

doesn't have a science background at all, and sort of goes through things from a

medical scientific standpoint. And actually, I talk about things like plant consciousness

and things like that. And then it takes us through kind of the spiritual and ceremonial

part and what that can offer as well.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 54:41

Excellent. And I think you have a link to a free gift for our audience, which is the first

three chapters is that right? Yes, yeah. Great. And we'll drop that below. Thank you so

much for that. And then we'll also drop links below for where to find Dr. Maya as well. As

the quantum drops Is there anything else you want to say about that? Or tell us where

people can find you? But we'll drop in some specific links also.

55:12

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, people can always find me just at Dr. maia.com. And you know,

I'm on Instagram as well. But I just, you know, we have tons of free resources on my

website. And I'm always really happy to answer any questions. I welcome that. So

please, you know, feel free to reach out.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 55:33

Brilliant. Well, I so appreciate the work that you're doing in the world, Maya, when we

met almost Well, it's not 10 years ago, when we met, I don't know, seven years ago, who

knew that you were going to be moving in this direction, right. So it's super interesting.

And the training of practitioners I think, is incredibly important. You might see me sign

up for one of those. So thank you for the work that you're doing.

55:57

Well, thank you. This was really always a pleasure to be able to spend time with you and

to do this.