Ayahuasca for Personal Development with Kat Gordon & Francisco Lillo

Episode 89:

Ayahuasca for Personal Development with Kat Gordon, Francisco Lillo and Evan H.

Hirsch, MD

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 00:02

Hey, everybody, welcome back to the energy MD podcast. Well, as you know, we help

people with chronic fatigue, long COVID And Cas, and other mystery symptoms get their

lives back. And we do this by focusing on what the real root causes are. And oftentimes,

you'll hear me talk about the toxic five, which are heavy metals, chemicals, molds,

infections, and trauma. And one of the things that we've been looking on and that I've

been examining, is how to get over trauma in different ways. So there's a number of

different programs that are out there. But one of the things that I've been examining has

been the use of different psychedelics and different plant medicines that I have found to

be very interesting, very helpful for me and very helpful for people in my community. So

I'm really excited about interviewing some new and good friends of mine. Today, we're

going to be learning a little bit more about ayahuasca. I recently went on an Ayahuasca

retreat that was led by these beautiful souls, cat and Francisco. And so we're going to

be talking to them today and learning a little bit more. So first, let's learn a little bit about

them. So Francisco and cats were closely with ancient wisdom holders as bridges

between the ancient and modern worlds, specifically bridging between the Andean and

Amazonian indigenous knowledge ways, and the modern Western world. Both spent

over a decade living in Peru on their personal journeys of learning, exploring and

working alongside indigenous wisdom holders. They are dedicated to the plant and

consciousness path and to the expansion of human consciousness through ceremonial

emergence. Francisco is originally from Chile, and has explored alternative healing and

consciousness expanding practices for over a decade. He is dedicated to the facilitation

of sacred ceremonies and music. He weaves experience from his world travels and

studies to his work with Amazonian indigenous leaders, and spiritual guides. Pat is from

California and works as an herbalist, plant spirit guide, and sacred ritual weaver who

immerses herself in alternative wellness practices, nature based rituals, yogic

philosophy and plant and human consciousness. Kat has worked with sacred ancestral

knowledge ways for over a decade. She is dedicated to learning from and sharing the

ways of ancient wisdom boulders at San Francisco, thank you so much for joining me

today.

Kat Gordon 02:32

Thank you. Are you excited to be here?

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 02:36

Yes. So as I mentioned, I recently went to one of your retreats and it was really

transformative for me. So I'm excited about sharing this information with our audience.

So I think let's first talk a little bit kind of about like overarching information just for

people who aren't aware of ayahuasca and some of this plant medicine. What is it? Let's

start there. So what is i Alaska

Francisco Lillo 03:07

Alright, so, the Alaska is a brew, is a brew some mix of two plants, mostly Ayahuasca is

actually is naming capture that mean that something that is dying have to rebirth This is

the meaning of Ayahuasca Why is in Quechua, because became super popular in the

Inca Empire. So got extended with the Quechua that was the language of the Inca

Empire. Now Ayahuasca Sabriel Sabriel that is in the Amazon rainforest, Colombia,

Ecuador, Peru, Brazil and Bali. All in these areas you can find a Alaskan there's different

cultures attach to this. Ayahuasca is a practice. It's a cultural practice, in where basically

all the village get together around this beautiful brew, and they share in community

exposing themselves a bit showing themselves vulnerables also sharing in joy or any

emotion that can come in with the medicine. Basically, there's two main elements in the

Alaska we have divined. That's called Ayahuasca SIBO have different names according

to place in the Amazon rainforest. Jacoby also have different names, and the other

element is the chakra, the chakra and the leaves of the chakra. So we boil these

elements and after a lot of practice, hours, sometimes days, songs, a lot of songs, we

have to pray over the medicine so the medicine get charged with really beautiful energy.

And then after days of cooking this in a proper way. We have the magic brew of iOS So

these are the main different elements of the of the medicine

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 05:05

axon, so you have the brew, and then what happens when people consume the brew.

Francisco Lillo 05:14

So basically, a lot of these have the first thing that happened is the chemical interaction

that we have with the with the body when we drink it. In the stomach, we have some

enzymes that blocks basically the absorption to the stomach of the DMT. So basically,

the Ayahuasca we have the vine specially, is that sin blockers of the blockers of this

absorbing DMT substances, these enzymes, so block it and allow the body to absorb it

slowly through the digestive wave. So it goes all the way to DMT and start to create

these experiences in where we can be connected with experiences from us from the

past, from the future, from the present as well, things that we're passing through and

different situations in our life. Now.

Kat Gordon 06:11

It's also there's like, the physical part that happens and then the brew is also you know,

from the worldview that that the medicine comes from, it's also this living spirit, right?

So the Ayahuasca is a blend of brew of different plants, but they the Ayahuasca brew

itself has what they say a spirit or an energy. So oftentimes, it's a highly intelligent land.

That's why everyone's experience is so different, it's so hard to say, like, you drink the

medicine and this happens. So one is based on the different the the medicines, very tied

to music, and rituals. So it's has to be done in a particular context to activate properly

and have a safe experience. And so depending on which tradition you're in, the

experience you're going to have is going to be very different, they also brew it a little bit

differently, the energies that they work with, that they bring through an open with the

music, which guides the spirit or the energy, the medicine in your body is going to be

very different depending on the tradition. So generally, what happens with this highly

intelligent, you know, medicine, it's not like, you drink this, and it does this, it's, it goes

into your body, and it sees where there may be like blockages, stuck energies, physical

energetic, spiritual healing, that may need to happen, creative blockages as well, or

perhaps like, a need to go back in time to an ancestral energy that you're still carrying in

your body, and kind of clear that. So there's so many different things that can happen.

But basically, it gives us this moment where time kind of stops in the normal sense of it,

you know, like time we can expand or contract time and in these moments, and so you

can go in there and really, really see things from a different perspective it gives you it

guides you into a deep, deep knowing of self. So it's a very deep inward dive. And that's

going to look very different for everyone based on their ancestral history, their lived

experiences and everything. Between.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 08:18

Yeah, yeah, one of the things that I found is that personal development is really essential

to getting better from anything, you know, it was a big part of my journey, and getting

over my chronic fatigue, and my wife's journey, and countless other people in our

community. And so I really appreciate you bringing that to light and the different levels

of healing, that healing is never just physical. It's also mental and emotional, and

spiritual, and ancestral. You know, which is really interesting, that idea that oftentimes,

and there's definitely research on this as well on that oftentimes, we carry things in our

genes, you know, the fact that my grandparents had to flee Germany during the

Holocaust, that sort of stress, you know, is in my genes, and consequently, it has an

effect on my life. Is there anything else you want to talk about in terms of the ancestral

healing part of this?

Kat Gordon 09:13

And then you said it really well you know, there's oftentimes we'll have emotions or even

fears, deep physical pains, or, or things that manifest physically or emotionally that we

just kind of like if you stop and think about, you don't really know where it came from,

you know, and you do all the things like possible available to us to, you know, maybe all

the, the traditional medicine and all the alternative tools, you go through like the

breathwork you might go to physical therapy, you might do acupuncture, you might who

knows, you know, you got all these different things you can't quite capture what it is and

just stays with you. And so that's where the medicine comes in. And what it really does,

it's not that it gets rid of it for you. It's a co creative process where it gives you the clarity

to see what it is and the tools in the moment to make the decision to release, if you're

willing and ready to go there and work with the medicine, that medicine also will only

take you as far as you're ready to go. So sometimes it will give you clarity and insight

into something you're carrying ancestrally, but not necessarily. It'll just start the process

gently, you know, because sometimes this can be very disruptive to someone's life. So it

will start the process for you. And then over time, it will continue to unfold in a way that

you can integrate into your life. Yeah,

Francisco Lillo 10:31

I would like to add also that I like to put it in terms of an example No, like, or family being

carrying package. No, it's a package that each one of our ancestors been adding stuff

over there. And probably mostly, at least in my families and the families that I've been

known to this project through this work. There's no one taken care of during the process

of healing in any of the families. So normally is as the one that we're doing this, this hard

work. So I like to put it in terms that we receive this package right now. And thanks to

the medicine, we're able to open this package, to get awareness of this package,

ancestral package their families are delivering to us and taking out all the things that are

not useful for us, nor even for our descendants, nor for our ancestors, not for anybody

else. Not trying to guilt, not trying to, you know, see responsible for the things just in the

present focus for the future where you can take the things out, close the package, and

do the same thing that everybody do giving this package to your kids, basically. And

then the kids will continue delivering this package. And yeah, I like to put in this example

now because one other note, we received this note in the Indian culture, they call it the

karma this the karma Dharma the end of the carmello. In basically is this package know,

where they calculate that, basically, or life is determined between 60 and 80%. About

what our families and our ancestors did make sense for me? Because for sure,

originally, we received this is an heritage cultural heritage, that one No, no, we have to

receive. So I think the ancestral healing start to happen, people say, seven generations

forward seven generations before, because of these elements now in where we're able

to open this package and say, I know my family's like that I don't think this is proper to

do, I don't think this is a good way, I don't think this is a good behave, we're gonna, we're

gonna modify this, we're gonna evolve a bit this behaves, and we're able to close the

package and continue giving it a bit lighter. No, for kids, also,

Kat Gordon 12:40

we leave the stuff behind, we set it down, and we move forward.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 12:47

Thank you for that. I appreciate that example. I know some people that have spoken to

they have caution about that package, or whatever other packages that get opened, you

know, let's say Pandora's box, you know, and that, and that it can put them in a worse

place, you know, that there's, there's obviously, you know, people's experiences with LSD

and other psychedelics that kind of get them stuck in some sort of loop or open up

something that people aren't ready for. How do you? Is there a way to prevent against

that, I know that you guys have a very gentle way that you do things that I know, my first

experience was very gentle. But how do you prevent, I guess, negative trips or negative

experience or from happening, understanding that also, having uncomfortable things or

being shown uncomfortable things is kind of like part of the process? How do you

navigate that?

Francisco Lillo 13:46

Yeah, well, this is the two elements that you're mentioning. No, sometimes we have two

differences, I make the difference now between a bad trip. And I think, a hard trip, you

know, and you have to pass through something that you know, you have to do it and it's

not comfortable, but you know, you're gonna do it and you have to do it. These are

different than a bad trip. A bad trip is when a person feel basically that is not supported

in a place and it's too overwhelming and they don't have the tools to navigate that and

there's nowhere to go to find some guidance in this. I think your your journey can be

hard to journey for sure. Because this is about opening or awareness to the things that

we don't want to face in the normal life that are creating all these blockages. So

basically is not hard. SR is not easy, is a bit hard to do the things. But I didn't see

anybody not coming out in the way that we do it. Everybody do it. Everybody paths to

these hard things. Why? Because there's the right support. We're there for whatever do

people need even for leaving the people doing the process in a proper way with respect

with space, with love with care, not that they know that We are here for whatever they

need. And also respecting their autonomy in the process of healing. I think this is an

element of value that we work with cataloged in our, in our spaces autonomy, that

people need to be able to pass through the things. So then they accomplish something,

they say, Ooh, I can do this, I can do the hard things. Also, not only the easy, funny, fast

things, I can do the heart, long, slow movement stuff also, and I can continue developing

my life. So. And

Kat Gordon 15:30

also, there's the element of like, that's why the context is so important. You know, you

hear in modern day, this idea of like set and setting Well, I asked was done in a very

specific ritualistic setting where you we spend years studying with our teachers to be

able to guide people in a safe way, because it's big energy, it's really big, expansive

energy, and it can get super overwhelming. And no matter how many tools you have, it's

something that you can't navigate necessarily on your own, we. But we can create a

context where we're moving the energy in a beautiful way where we're using the songs,

and the different tools that we've learned that the medicine recognises to create a safe

and generally calm environment so that the person can find their own autonomy and

their own empowerment to like, move through whatever is coming up. The what I was

saying before, also about the medicine being highly intelligent. So that's the difference

between like a lot of chemical psychedelics and something like iron law, SCA, or other

plant based things there, they have this intuitive intelligence where they know until

where you're able to go. And that's also why it's important to have a guide because you

don't go open too much too fast for then you're gonna go home and be totally like, what

do I do? You know, the beauty in the medicine is it only gives you what you're ready and

able to hold. Sometimes I can still feel really disruptive to your life and overwhelming

when you get home. That's why integration is such an important part of the process. We

always say like the ceremony starts after the ceremony. And so it's important to set

yourself up with other tools and methodologies to support you in navigating and

integrating what what opened for you. But you know, also sometimes it does get a little

messy afterwards, because you have to make some big transitions and shifts in your

life. Because once you see things you can see them we always say like once you open

the door, it's you know, you can't close it, you saw you saw what you saw, but it's also a

process. So like nothing completes necessarily in the ceremony. It's like, okay, what did

you learn? And how are you going to implement this in your everyday life, and that's

where the change happens. And that part can get messy and confusing and

overwhelming. And that's where proper guidance comes in. And as long as you've been

in a safe and well guided ceremony, you can usually can smoothly if not a little

emotionally navigate afterwards. So aftercare is a big part of the process, too. Yeah.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 18:05

And it seems like that's some of the ways that you guys are doing the aftercare, our

check ins with the group that have kind of gone through together, there's processing

during or after each of the ceremonies? Can you speak a little bit to the importance of

those?

Kat Gordon 18:25

Yeah, so we have we, I mean, we call it integration, it's after each ceremony like so we

generally, we always do two ceremonies never just do like one offs, because the first

one's kind of like cleaning the windshields getting to know each other The second one's

we can, we can run we can fly, we can go deeper, you know. And so between each one,

we do integration, the the purpose being that it's super important to sometimes speak

out loud or process, what's happening in your experience. And also because when you

share space with other people, you will be surprised that their experiences are very

different, but there's so many similarities and patterns. And so speaking about and

allowing yourself to process gives you a little bit of a different perspective. And then it

also helps us understand how to guide you both before, during and after the ceremony.

And then the integration afterwards, you know, we are always available, we can only

guide people as far as they're willing to go and engage. But, you know, we try to offer

some tools, some spaces to talk and to drop in to navigate what's coming up.

Honouring that everyone's process is different, but there are you know, across the board

tools and ways of approaching that will will best support your integration and you know,

like I said, we can only meet people as far as they're willing to go some people we never

talked to them again. That's very rare. We generally follow up if if not, but it's really

important because you get so much information with the medicine you can't always

remember it all. In the moment, so like over time, oh, sometimes over the years that

unfolds, and then it's like, okay, now when I remember that, what am I going to do with

it? So that's the community aspect of what we do like this is traditionally done in tribes.

We try to create a community around this. So people feel like they're part of a secret

family, you know, where, if something comes up three months later, they know they can

come and like, drop in with us and process it. It's not like, Okay, we never talk to you

again, type of thing, that that's a big part of why it's important to feel like you're in

context, or you're held much beyond the ceremony. Yeah, we

Francisco Lillo 20:39

tried to create, like, an environment we call the family of the medicine, an environment

where everybody is invited to come, you know, with their own wheel and understanding

that it's a process to grow in the consciousness. So there's gonna be changes, there's

going to be movements. That's the reason for us, it's so important, this family of the

medicine to have this support.

Kat Gordon 21:06

And oftentimes, like many alternative methods, like breath, work, yoga, you know, people

who already have these modalities or a therapist something in their life, have a toolkit of

wellness tools and mindfulness tools, they are best able to navigate. So we try to give

people entrances to these tools so that they can find ways to move through the big

emotions.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 21:32

Yeah, that's my next question, who is a good fit for this work? Is it people who are

coming already from understand or are ready doing personal development work, and

they've had some of these experiences with yoga and with breath work? Does it matter

how much trauma they've had.

Kat Gordon 21:55

Um, we find that you know, it's, you can go deeper faster, often, if you already have

wellness tools, or mindfulness tools, or just some consciousness about your body, how

it works, or if you're a spiritual person for for example. Oftentimes, you can drop in

faster, but I always say this work is for everyone. You know, you like you go as far as

you're ready to go. But the most important thing when people come in really with like, for

example, maybe a lot of trauma and no, like support around them, we're first gonna work

with them to set up some support and some tools. We may not, we may suggest, like a

private ceremony where we can really like, track their experience with them. You know,

there's different levels of ceremonies as well, in terms of like deep, deep personal

healing versus collective healing. But really, anyone can come to these spaces and learn

and sometimes coming to, like a ritual and a ceremony that has a beautiful ceremonial

context, can actually can be a catalyst for someone's journey into these other

modalities, you know, and so it's kind of like there's not one or the other, the most

important is that someone really wants to make change, like they want to heal, change.

vision forward, if you know you're coming, because I don't know your your partner invited

you and you don't really know that's not a good fit. It's usually like, you've tried a lot of

different things. Nothing seems to make the shift. And you really sincerely want to make

the change and want to take responsibility for that process. Those are the people

because you're gonna take your process seriously, and then you are generally going to

seek out the tools to support you if you don't already have. I don't know, if you want to

add? Yeah, I

Francisco Lillo 23:46

think the only complicated thing that I've been seeing is the people that is just to just to

do it, you know, like they really don't have to see what happened, you know, I want to see

what happened. Oh, you will see what happens. It's a bit of I haven't, so it's better to be

prepared for that what happened? So yeah, I think the if the person have the will of

healing, if they want to do it, the doors are open and spacious, hoping for the support for

sure.

Kat Gordon 24:17

For example, I would if someone doesn't have any context around this, I wouldn't

necessarily say like, go to the Amazon, you know, sit and master plant data. It's like

there's stages of getting into it, that can be gentle and like then if you want to go deeper

in the process, you need a little bit of experience in context. Yes.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 24:37

Thank you. Yeah, I think for me, one of the things you know, with the that we talked

about in my ceremony was that that even though I was I was open, though I was having

some resistance and I was in my mind and not in my body. And so consequently once

you mentioned that to me, because my first night was more mild, then I I was able to go

into my body. And I was able to, I think connect more with the medicine and I had a

more meaningful experience the the second night, so I really appreciate the guidance

that you offered on that. So I don't know a lot about what, what different people think

about ayahuasca, like in the regular community, but what are some of the myths or

misconceptions where people are like, Oh, Ayahuasca is this but it's really not?

Kat Gordon 25:32

Well, there's against it. Common was neat. Those seem again, awesome. Um, there's a

lot of things he will say like, it's crazy, and people get wild, and it's like, you're never

gonna be able to come back into your body. Like you hear a lot of crazy things, you

know, that it's witchcraft, depending on which culture you're talking to. That's why the

context is so important. Like, yes, it can't it's, it's huge energy. This is like, it's a beautiful

energy, it's a huge energy, there's this awesome misconception that it's really like, has to

be super hard and, and painful and full of like suffering. And I think that's just a

reflection of our context, in our society that we believe like, everything has to be hard,

like we have disconnected from our joy, in my opinion, and we've disconnected from the

earth. And the beauty all around us. Like we're so overstimulated, that we are looking for

these, like crazy experiences, you know, I often find people miss the subtleties of the

medicine, it's actually is a big energy. And it also has many tiny, beautiful subtleties that

can teach you much more than those like crazy visual experiences you may or may not

have. So a lot of people think you're going to be totally out of body, like, you know, like

wild visuals, you're going to be doing things that you didn't, you're not going to

remember the next day that are embarrassing, and all these different things, yes, that

can happen if it's not a well facilitated experience. We've never had any of those things

really happen in our spaces, because we serve with a lot of love. I think, you know,

there's a lot of myths like we can, it can be joyful to and we show that to people and

their experiences, kind of what you spoke about, you know, we lead you from your head,

your heart. So if you can get out of the head and the thinking and all the expectations of

what you think it should be, and you get into your heart space, you know, you can have

this beautiful embodied experience, maybe with visuals, maybe when not but a really

true knowing of yourself in a way you never, ever did before. And, and knowing of the

way the earth and the plants hold us and guide us in unseen ways. But you know, this

idea of it being you being stuck in that space is not, it's not possible, you know, it's like

any other substance, our body eventually, like processes it out, and you come back into

your body. And you know, you have to find your ways to process through whatever you

learned, but you're not going to be stuck in this this cycle psychedelics space or

something like that?

Francisco Lillo 28:25

Yeah, I think there's, there's so many tensions that people do in the Amazon rainforest

and other different tribes, they have different purposes and meanings for for the

medicine. And when you take out this medicines, from the context, it can create some

issues, several issues. I think one of the most important issues is what I've been seeing

in medicine is the bypassing, you know, bypassing basically the medicine. This is one of

the main concerns that I've been seeing people that feel that I'm better than you

because I drink my This describes the spiritual bypassing this, what I've been saying a

lot, I think we're all in a process, we're all doing something, we're all processing

something, nobody have all the problems in their lives resolved. We're all passing

through something. And this is something that create the unit in the family of the

medicine to get over the things also. And also for the people that get a bit complicated

in the medicine being there for them, you know, so they can, they can continue the

healing process that they already started.

Kat Gordon 29:32

And, you know, this medicine is prepared in a way like Francisco had alluded it to it, but

when you cook the medicine and all these things, it's like a multi day process in a ritual

with specific chants, prayers, all these things, all this energy put into it. And so again,

sourcing super important knowing who you're sitting with knowing where they're

sourcing their medicine, you don't have to know where they're sourcing you just kind of

need to trust and know their path and know that they've seen Got it in there connected

to good. Good teachers, you know, indigenous wisdom holders that they have gone to

the Amazon and, and learned from the source. And in that way, I think you avoid all

these, you hear a lot of crazy things. And I'm not denying that they they haven't

happened to people. But I think it's because they're going to spaces we're where people

are serving this and they don't know how to hold the energy they've never gone and

learned from the roots. And so it can get out of hand, like anything, you know?

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 30:31

Yeah, that's my next question is, you know, like, what makes a good practitioner or

somebody who's like providing or a guide, who's doing this, so you kind of mentioned a

few things. So it's the intention, it's the cultivation. It's, it's, it's creating the space, it's

creating the safety. And you guys did this so wonderfully, where I felt very held where

you guys are watching the whole room, making sure everybody's being taken care of

letting people have their own process. And then we could also come up to you guys, if

we had any issues while we were going through the process. Is there anything else

around that? Like when people are looking for practitioners? Obviously, you know, I've

had a great experience with you guys. And I highly recommend you for anybody who's

interested. But if they have access to somebody locally, and they're like, oh, you know, I

want to, I want to go have this experience? Because I'm interested in working on myself.

What sort of things should they be looking for in this practitioner in this guide?

Francisco Lillo 31:29

In Yeah, this is an excellent, it's an excellent question. Super good, you know, because I

think we go to the main core and root of why, for example, myself, I'm doing this.

Basically, you have to lead by example. So the person that is telling you things to do, you

have to see their lives, also their personal lives, how the things are going over there.

Because it's super easy to speak, you know, super easy to speak, super easy to, you

know, tell the people what to do, and you don't do it, then it doesn't have any weight, the

person is not going to do it, because they see your example, one or not, or bodies

recognize the other person, as a leader, as a friend as a different kinds of things. A

leader need to have some qualities and in this unique leadership, totally, you need to be

able to show up for the people to be there to call even if the people if I feel something

that the people is passing through something complicated, I call I have no

embarrassment of doing the things. I know something complicated, surprising words in

Western society to show yourself be vulnerable. I'm not afraid of that I'm not afraid of I

really want the healing of the people, I think is super important. Leading by example, as

the person questions, you know, like, how are you dealing with your things, you know,

because everybody's dealing with something. There's no rockstars here, there's nothing,

no one over anybody, there's no Jeric in this, we're all in the same paths in the same

stuff. And I think this, this define a good person, someone that is doing their own

process. Someone that takes serious this process, and the people that is serving, this

should be a path I've been doing a lot of changes in my life is strong changes, I used to

be dedicated to do marketing, I used to be you know, working in law, I used to be

working in different things, man, video filmmaking, and I have to do some efforts in my

life, to be more focused in this to be more aligned with my values, the value of the

family, my value of the respect, being respectful, being honest, saying the truth, so hard

in these times to have these values. But I've been committed since 14 years to just to

these two values. And this took me to a path basically, of medicine, where I have to

develop these values, because these values you practice in society, it's easy to be

respectful with some people but with other people, we're not respectful, then we're not

totally respectful, so gritty, we need to have integrity, you know, we cannot be doing

double life. You know, we say something we do something different. That's it. Yeah,

Kat Gordon 34:12

this is a it's a spiritual path. So like more Francisco's, like, you have to look at someone's

life be like, how are they living their life, you know, its integrity and what you you say if

you're serving the medicine, it's like we have we prepare for like before the ceremonies

energetically like we can't be out doing certain things. You know, there's a whole process

of preparation as a facilitator and so you can, as you talk to someone you can see like,

are they taking this seriously? Are they energetically preparing themselves to hold a

clean space? What are their relationships with other people on you know, like, of course,

everyone has disagreements, but how are how is that navigated? Is there respect? Is

there integrity? And also, I mean, one of the biggest things twos, but not enough, like you

know, there's a lot of people I go study with mice was my stress in the Amazon but then

get lost in, in their normal day lives? It's like, are they learning from the roots? are they

carrying a tradition, I think being tied to a tradition keeps you kind of in that spiritual

library, you have the tools to properly guide someone. Like I said, this is not from our

western context. So there particular tools that we need to use in a ceremonial space,

energetic spiritual tools that we wouldn't necessarily have if we never went and learned

these things. And then also adapted them, they're like, you know, in the Amazon, it can

be a little rough, like Barry loves. So it's like, we take this and with a lot of love, adapt it to

Western society, so that people feel safe when they receive these ways of being guided.

So that they can really drop in, drop their defenses and have their process. So looking

for those type of things, asking the right questions, asking, the facilitator is asking

people have sat with them? Yeah.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 36:01

Yeah, I was, I was recommended by somebody to you guys who I respect. And I value

his opinion. And so I think that that was that was comforting for me. Because I was also

I had also felt called to the medicine, which I want to talk about in a second. And so it

was something that I was interested in doing. But I had concerns. And so I really needed

it to be in the right context. And I wanted to make sure that it was safe. So can you talk a

little bit about feeling when someone feels called to the medicine and what that means?

Kat Gordon 36:38

Um, I'll share it live on them. Yeah. Usually, when you feel called it's like this just inner

knowing like, it's funny, you could be around people talking about it, you could be around

a whole community, you hear the word Ayahuasca everywhere now, but you don't, there's

not like a pain. When you feel called there's like a pain, like, it's an undeniable, it's not a

curiosity, like, Man, I wonder what happened. If I took this, it's the intelligence of the

plant calling you because your souls, your soul needs to go on a journey, a spiritual,

energetic, physical, mental, emotional journey to learn something to improve your life to

release something. And so when you do feel the call, that's a real it's, it's a deep intuition,

which can also help you when you're looking for spaces. Like, I remember the first time I

felt the call, I was living in the hotbed of, of the medicine and I went to many different

spaces, and I walked out of many different spaces before sitting my first time. So it's

really listening. Like, just because I feel a call doesn't mean this is the right space. It's

like, you find the the practitioners and spaces that resonate with your soul. And so it's a

very intuitive process, or someone you trust, and you watch their process. And so, I don't

know if you want to add something.

Francisco Lillo 37:54

Yeah, I think the I think you said it pretty well. You know, the, this goal that we see is that

sometimes, you know, there's people that everybody's drinking WASC around them, and

they don't feel the call. There's people that even works in retreat to fire Alaska, they don't

drink the medicine, they just prepare. It can go deeper in the in not feeling the call. Now,

there's an indirect call direct call, you know, like, I think when it's super close, you have

someone that is suggestion you that you respect, highly respect. I don't know also the

most of the people come like, honestly, the people that come for healing, there's two

main things not healing, and looking for purpose. These these are the two things,

healing deep trauma, and people that want to find something to do in life, a goal

something in life, I think that people are calling for trauma. They want to, you know, take

over the things, you know, and they want to pursuit a life and this is the second step in

where we're start to pursuing something in life.

Kat Gordon 39:04

And they recognize as deeper like they can't just do it and talk that like they recognize

the tools, the things they've been trying aren't working. So they're called to something

that's going to take them in a deeper journey that they can't access in this realm. Like

that, they have to kind of get out like change their point of view, like zoom out and

change the angle, you know,

Francisco Lillo 39:24

also, always is going to be fear, you know, because fear is when it's not in the comfort

zone, it's not in the comfort area for lives. Something that we want to do or we want to

experience at the moment is going to appear the fear. This is not an indicator of not

feeling the call this an indicator of this is out of my comfort zone. Why this good? So

then we have to see the other elements because sometimes out of fear, we just block

and we say no, and then it's complicated. Maybe you're feeling the cold but the fear is

just blocking and the fear is not related with that because you don't know anything. thing

about, so is a fear that it doesn't have any solid statements in an experience. So it's just

fear for fear. So sometimes the fear blog, the things, but the medicine start to call you in

that way, and also is a need, you know, people that really need this this deep healings,

you know, and Alaska is now so much more real possibility to start to do this, these

experiences now.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 40:28

Yeah, I appreciate the fact that you said that cat when you were talking about like, going

deeper a way that you can access it and other ways because oftentimes, you know,

people will do talk therapy, which can help you to a certain degree, and then meditation

and mindfulness and maybe some other somatic practices, and that'll help you to a

certain degree. But that, you know, this has a way of opening things up that potentially

you can go in other directions. So thank you for saying that. So we're just about out of

time here. But I did want, if you wanted to touch quickly on the El Monte Ira project that

you guys are working on, I'd love to hear a little bit about that.

Kat Gordon 41:13

Yeah, on my tiara means soul and earth in Spanish. You know, we understand the

personal healing journey is super important. And that's why we do the work that we do,

you know, to make bigger change in the world, it starts with us, and then ripples out

from there. And so if we want to, you know, make those changes, we want to provide

spaces for people who sincerely want to change their lives, change themselves, and

then create a more beautiful, harmonious world. That being said, there's this idea in the

Western culture, like everything's, for me, it's my process, it's very extractive. And the

whole worldview in the Andean Amazonian culture, where we've studied and immersed

ourselves for many years is that there's this idea of sacred reciprocity we give and take,

we always give more than we take. There's this constant back and forth. And so we

understood when we first started this journey that we really wanted to honor you know,

the wisdom holders, and we are actually called by political and spiritual leaders from the

Amazon, pretty early on in our process of working together to help support them with

their true and real needs. Yes, they're these beautiful spiritual wisdom holders, who

make them edit sacred medicines, provide healing spaces, and provide it to go out into

the world as well for people like us to be the bridges, but you know, they have real potent

needs like fresh drinking water, more housing, being able to they've, you know, they, they

were cut off from their lands, and then reunited with their lands, and also their

autonomy, autonomy. And so being able to, again, like produce their own food, and the

diversity of food source. And so, in Peru, this isn't as big of an issue because the tribes

are kind of recognized and protected by the government to some degree in Brazil, it's in

bigger issues. So we decided to, you know, collaborate with these chiefs, these people

that were calling us to build something beyond ourselves. And this is our way of, of

honoring and giving back and supporting and growing together and bringing these

medicines out to the world. So all my theater, projects have taken on many different

forms. But the idea is we co create and collaborate with villages, with spiritual leaders,

with different institutions to support projects that we feel, are going to help keep these

sacred medicines alive, and also to keep the people that are the original holders of them

in safe and protected environment, so they can continue to live and thrive as we receive

and benefit from their, their healing modalities in our modern world. And like I said,

those projects take many different forms. I don't know if you want to add something.

Francisco Lillo 44:04

Yeah, I think the most important part in that material project that we've been doing in

Brazil, Peru, United States in different places now, I think, is the values, you know, like the

practice of values, this is the most important thing. Because we respect so much the

leaders that we work with is the reason that we've been contributing in development of

different villages over there. Also, by taking them and show this beautiful world does

beautiful work to the world. So people can see this in the end, not only in Brazil, because

it's super, super complicated to go there and get to know this these people. Not

everybody has the time resources or whale to do the things. So it's I think it's the value

of respect is super important. Honesty, you know, we are so We're honest in what we're

doing open hands, you know to receive the people so that people can do their own

process. But

Kat Gordon 45:06

we want them to see that the process is yes personal and so important but there's also

something so much bigger beyond them that need gets to be honored when we use

these these beautiful plants to heal ourselves. We also have a whole planet in a rain

forest to support and that people, not just the plants, the people that are the guardians

of them.

Francisco Lillo 45:29

Yeah, so as we take care of them here in the physical aspect, they take care of us in the

astral. So that's the reciprocity with the with our teachers. Yeah.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD 45:42

Beautiful work. I so appreciate everything that you guys are doing that project sounds

amazing, the retreats are amazing. I'm so grateful for the experience that I had and for

you sharing everything today. And so we're gonna put a link if people are interested in

connecting with you. We'll put that in the show notes down below this video or around

this podcast somewhere so that people can connect with you. Anything else you want

to add before we adjourn today?

Kat Gordon 46:13

Thank you so much for sharing your experience and opening the space for us to share.

We welcome anyone who wants to explore these these beautiful plants and guides and

I'll shout out many blessings on your path. Thank you. Thank you