Medicinal Mushrooms for Fatigue and Brain Fog with Robert Johnson

Episode 97:

Medicinal Mushrooms for Fatigue and Brain Fog with Robert Johnson and Evan H. Hirsch, MD

Evan H. Hirsch, MD  00:04

Hey everybody, welcome back to the energy MD podcast where we help you resolve your chronic fatigue long COVID and M casts Masel activation syndrome, so that you can live the life that you deserve. And we do this by getting to the root cause and finding the real root causes that you have. So I'm really excited about today's talk because we're gonna be talking about all things mushrooms. Yes, not just the psychedelic mushrooms but also how mushrooms can influence your immune system and other parts of your physiology. And we're gonna be talking with Robert Johnson about this. He is the founder and CEO of premium mushroom product company Mike microbe boost and supplements manufacture custom capsule consultants. He's a cannabis and hemp industry veteran health product expert, psychedelic advocate and seasoned entrepreneur with a 20 year track record of launching successful startup businesses in new and emerging markets. His pioneering product innovations and keen insights into the future of the Health Marketplace have made him a sought after consultant, conference speaker and op ed contributor. His byline is on cannabis hemp Delta eight kratom and mushrooms have all kinds of appeared and Rollingstone cannabis industry daily mg magazine natural products insider nutraceuticals world nutritional outlook and green entrepreneur. Robert, thanks so much for joining me today.

Robert Johnson  01:23

Yeah, thanks a lot for having me, Evan, I'm excited to speak with you.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD  01:26

Me too. So you're the mushroom guy. And I know you've referred to a term called functional mushrooms. So let's start there. So what are functional mushrooms? Right,

Robert Johnson  01:39

yeah, it all starts with a good vocabulary lesson. So functional mushrooms are also known as medicinal mushrooms or adaptogenic mushrooms. They're their fungi that is not necessarily the topping that you'd want on your pizza, although some of them tastes pretty good. And it's not the one that's going to make you hallucinate the psychedelic mushrooms, but rather mushrooms that have been used, for example, in Chinese medicine for 5000 some odd years. And at micro boost, we work with five different varieties of these functional mushrooms. And each one of them has different properties that are good for your health in different ways. So, like, for example, I think the most popular one that we work with is Lion's Mane, I think the name is pretty cool, which probably gives it a good head start. But I think the reason why people are gravitating towards lion's mane is because of its cognitive enhancing properties. Lion's Mane is good for the memory, it's good for focus. It's good for word recall. And and so, at Custom capsule consultants, you know, was working with a ton of different brands across a wide range of different types of supplements. And for the past few years, I have been getting more and more inquiries about lion's mane and putting it in products specifically for the brain or to prevent neurodegenerative diseases such as Alzheimer's and dementia. And so I'm a naturally curious person and you know, I keep getting more and more requests for lion's mane and products and part of my my job as the as a product formulator and consultant is you know, not only identifying sources for these products, but really advising on the amounts that should be used at each ingredient to really have a a therapeutic effect. And so I in my research with Lion's Mane found that a suggested dose is for a daily serving is between 800 milligrams and and 3000 milligrams of lion's mane and so we use that that information to to formulate our products. But medicinal mushrooms are are amazing. Not only are they are they good for your brain, but you know, I know a big one for your listeners is as for energy, and cortisol apps specifically are ones that are used for for energy athletes use them as a pre workout that's really good for your blood flow and also for your respiratory system. So you actually can get more oxygen into your lungs. One of my my favorite anecdotes about cortisol UPS was in the 1990s. There's a Chinese female Olympic track team that won so many races won so many medals that in Olympic fashion. They were drug tested, and they passed all their drug tests, but it was their track coach that credited Porter steps mushrooms for their increased performance We work with a few different athletes from from fighters to runners and football players. And and they all report that the quadriceps is really just like a great natural way to improve their their performance and their health and their energy levels.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD  05:20

Excellent. So then what's a good dose of quarter steps?

Robert Johnson  05:25

Yeah, quarter steps as well has, depending on who you ask about 1000 milligrams to 2500 milligrams of daily serving. So we make a product that I take on a daily basis. It's a vegan soft gel capsule, and we call it our brain formula. And it's a combination of lion's mane and Porter steps. And it's a two pill, soft gel serving size. And so in that serving, you're getting 1500 milligrams of lion's mane and 1500 of quarter steps. I take that in the morning, you know, I work often long hours, and it's great to just keep me focused on my tasks, and, and paying attention and energized and enthused for the projects I'm working on.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD  06:15

Nice. Can you tell us a little bit about how some of these I know there's different ways of making mushroom products? Can you tell us a little bit about some of those different ways and why one way might be better than another?

Robert Johnson  06:34

Yeah, so in the world of supplements, you know, the FDA tries to discredit supplements, there's a lot of, you know, negative reviews of supplements. And that's because it is really an unregulated industry. And there are there are extremely high quality products out there. And there's, there's, you know, products that are made, essentially as a marketing play, or placebo. Right. So when, when these customers would contact me and, you know, for example, asking about Lion's Mane, or whatever the trendy ingredient of the moment is ashwagandha. Elderberry are a couple of other popular ones, you know, they'll explain how we want to have all these in our in our product. And when I do my research, I'll go back and I'll say, Well, if it's a small form factor, like a soft gel explain, you know, we can't really fit a therapeutic amount of all of these ingredients into a single pill. And they'll, you know, oftentimes come back with like, you know, we just kind of want to have it on there. So we can we can claim that that's what it is. And so mushrooms are no different. They're they're a supplement, it's not heavily regulated. And so the this is a really astute question. And it's, it's something that is happening right now where there's a petition to the FDA, from mushroom companies, requesting that companies that that use what are called mycelium did oats in their products versus the fruiting body of a mushroom, which is, you know, the stem and the cap, or in Lion's Mane case, you know, it looks like the hair of a lion or cheerleaders Pom Pom, that that fruit is what emerges from the substrate, and that is what has the majority of the medicinal benefits in it. So if you imagine when mushrooms are grown commercially, they're grown on a starchy block substrate, usually some combination of rice, oats, corn, and that substrate is inoculated with the spore or the liquid culture of the mushroom. And from there, the mycelium grows throughout that substrate and Mycelium is the root system of the mushroom. And from there, the fruiting body emerges. So what I discovered and doing doing an article for Rolling Stone a few months ago, was that a ton of these mushroom companies will remove the fruiting body from the substrate and either sell that and a different product, sell it in a farmer's market or even just go to mushroom companies that grow mushrooms, and they're not interested in purchasing the lion's mane through that these farmers are growing but they'll buy that my ciliated, oat mass, pulverized that mass and then put that into your two piece mushroom capsule or your your coffee and your product. So mycelium does have some beneficial properties to it, no doubt, but they're in very small amounts like less than 1% of the mycelium contains the beneficial compounds. And then if you just think about the sheer volume of the oats in that in that substrate, basically what you're paying for is high end dirt. You know, you're forking over 3040 $50 for medicinal mushroom product, and you're essentially just getting the dirt that it was grown in. And so, that's, that's a main difference. And you know it as a, as a leader in the industry, you know, I saw CBD really go from boom to bust very fast, I think because of this very reason, there was a lot of products out there, people race to market to, you know, cash in on this on this trendy ingredient. And consequently, a lot of poor quality products got out there, people tried them, and then they thought, you know, the CBD thing is overpriced, overrated and, and not good for me, which, you know, is unfortunate, because CBD along with functional mushrooms is really powerful and great for your body for anti inflammation, which is the root of a lot of disease in the body. And so, I just want people to understand that and they're buying mushroom products to really check the label, some companies will actually say in the fine print on the back, you know, made with my ciliated oats, but really a lot of companies obfuscate what is actually in that product. And so if you, if you if you dig or if you if you ask them, straight up, you know is this made with with fruiting bodies or in microbuses case, we use fruiting body extracts. So even going beyond taking that fruit or making a concentrated version of that fruit so that we can put the equivalent of, you know, over a gram of mushrooms into a single small form factor like a like a soft gel pill. But you know, at first when I thought wow, they're you know, people selling mycelium versus fruiting body what could be the, the ratio of efficacy, you know, maybe maybe the fruiting bodies are five to one is strong 10 to one is strong. Actually, the math is more like 500 to one. So it's tough to educate a market when you have a product on Amazon that's, you know, a half a gallon bottle that has 300 capsules in it and it's 1999 You know, our challenge is to explain to the potential customer well actually, our our bottle has 30 capsules, and it's 2499 but one pill contains more mushroom beneficial compounds then that entire 300 capsule bottle. So the difference is quite significant. And what is the last thing I want is for mushrooms to get that poor reputation like CBD and have it just be considered another fad diet or a fad ingredient where you know and in fact from all the supplements that I've worked with in the past 20 years, it may be the most powerful natural product available.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD  13:18

Excellent. Thank you for that explanation very helpful. So when you were looking at the research when you're when you're looking to formulate or or consult on some of these products, is most of the research on the fruiting body or is it on the mycelium body or or what?

Robert Johnson  13:38

Yeah, well. The research is still rather limited. There's a there's a lot out there. And you know the the one person who talks a lot about mycelium consequent or coincidentally is probably the most famous mycologist in North America. His name's Paul Stamets and he makes a line of products that uses mycelium and so when, when this petition came to the FDA, he he pushed back and and made the comments about it and you know suggested that that mycelium really does have a lot of beneficial properties to it as well. And I definitely do not claim to know even a fraction of what Paul Stamets knows about mushrooms. So I find it really interesting that that he's out there, you know, even commenting on it, I thought was was huge. And so yeah, the research out there is primarily about the compounds that are in the fruiting body of the mushrooms, but But Paul Stamets in you know singularly has led a lot of the research on mycelium as well and it's not to be dismissed.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD  15:00

So it sounds like there's research on both. But it sounds like the research that you've seen is more convincing on the fruiting body, is that accurate to say?

Robert Johnson  15:08

100%? Okay.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD  15:14

Very interesting. So yeah, so let's so then in terms of utilizing these mushrooms, are they better as individuals, or as a group where sometimes the group complements each other,

Robert Johnson  15:28

but depends on on your needs, you know, we, we make a mushroom coffee that combines all all five, but the mushrooms and you know, besides the cognitive benefits of Lion's Mane, the energy boosting benefits of Cordis apps, and I'd really summarize I think the, the medicinal properties of the other mushrooms that we use, which are Chaga, Rishi and Turkey Tail, because they have a lot of immunity boosting properties and that their natural antioxidants, and then they also really regulate the gut microbiome. So besides what is going on between our ears, you know, in our brains, I think inflammation plays a huge role in, in pain and, and disease in the body. And then also what is going on in our gut, I think next to our brain affects our mood, and our outlook, and just our general demeanor. So if I had to, you know, summarize how these mushrooms are working on us, it's the gut, it's the brain and anti inflammatory properties. So, you know, I, I'm, I'm 39. And, you know, a former athlete, I have, you know, some, some sore back and knee from old injuries. And I like to use, you know, all the mushrooms for those anti inflammatory properties. But, you know, my, my mom has arthritis, and she uses our immunity formula, along with this CBDa CBGa formula, that we also make a hemp based product. So I think when you when you have inflammatory issues that are really noticeable, like something like, like arthritis, you know, taking it as the relief is a lot more noticeable than, you know, if you're 25 years old, and and don't have, you know, those sort of noticeable issues, right.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD  17:35

And in terms of immune system support, you know, there's, there's some concern that some mushrooms can stimulate the th one, the teeth, help us help help or sell one aspect of the immune system, which is more of the acute immune system activity versus th two, which is more of like the innate, like the IgG responses. And so sometimes people can feel worse, taking different mushrooms because they have an autoimmune process in their body. That's either th one or th two. What is your opinion about that?

Robert Johnson  18:13

Yeah, I mean, with with all supplements, we always have the disclaimer that, you know, we're not, we're not doctors, and that, you know, if you're taking any medication, if you have any issue, that is always a good idea to consult with your doctor, you know, to make sure that, that something's not going to interfere with some sort of medicine that you're taking, or cause an issue. So that's, that's definitely a disclaimer, and another challenge of marketing supplements, as you really can't make medical claims about them. You know, there's research that shows Turkey Tail can reverse at, you know, the growth of cancer cells, but unfortunately, we can't put that sort of like miracle information on on our packaging. I think we I will link to, you know, articles and blogs on the website. But you know, it's just this this weird, fine line that you have to walk because of the FDA in this country.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD  19:17

Yeah, fair enough. But yeah, I think for people who have tried mushrooms before, if they didn't exactly feel quite right, it could be that they were stimulating different aspects of the immune system that may not have been working right with their physiology. In terms of mushrooms being a fungus, you know, we treat lots of people who have yeast and mold. Is there any research out there on mushrooms being contraindicated for some of these people who have fungi already in their bodies?

Robert Johnson  19:46

That's a great question. And I'm not sure I know that. You know, a lot of a lot of medicine comes from, from bacteria and fungi, you know, the discovery of penicillin was an accident. Animal, you know, mold spore that blew in through the window, and, you know, saved 10s of 1000s, maybe millions of lives since.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD  20:10

Yeah. Let's talk a little bit more about your coffee. So besides the mushrooms, what else is in there?

Robert Johnson  20:19

Yeah, so every serving has the 3000 milligrams of mushrooms. And then otherwise, we have a very small amount of organic coffee in there. So per serving, it's a 55 milligrams of caffeine, which is about the equivalent of a third of a cup of coffee, or a cup of black tea, or Earl Grey tea. And then the the main carrier is, is cocoa or cacao. When we were trying a bunch of the mushroom coffees out there, and, and coming up with our own recipe and, and interviewing people about about their experience with mushroom coffee and got a lot of feedback that people didn't like the taste. And you know, when you're 10 years old, first drying coffee or alcohol or beer or something for your first time, maybe it becomes an acquired taste. But because coffee is, you know, the most used drug on the planet, getting people to switch and change that, that habit, we decided we wanted something that was going to taste really delicious. And you know, at least the overcoming the objection wouldn't be about taste for us. And so I actually, I still drink coffee, and I put a scoop of tablespoon of the micro boost directly into my coffee. And so it gives it a nice, chocolatey taste to it. And then the only other ingredient is some Himalayan sea salt. And that just helps to bring out the flavor makes it a little more robust. But yeah, the majority of the product is is cocoa. So the taste is closer to a hot chocolate than, you know, a cup of Starbucks.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD  22:05

Nice. And cacao also has some caffeine in it. Do you know how much caffeine is in the product? That's from the cacao?

Robert Johnson  22:13

Yeah, yeah, about 15 milligrams of the 55 is coming from the cacao. Yeah, and it all it also has antioxidant properties and a heart opener as as the hippies would say.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD  22:30

Yeah, it's right now it's actually my my beverage of choice in the morning making some hot cacao. And I first learned about it when I went on my first Ayahuasca ceremony, and it was something that we consumed afterwards. And I found it to be very opening and grounding and, and those sorts of things. So it's very cool that you have that in your product as well. I'm excited for you to dryers. Yeah, I am as well. Thank you. So it sounds like you also have quite a bit of knowledge around CBDs and you guys offer some products that have different CB components, is that correct?

Robert Johnson  23:11

Correct. Yeah, they're like like mushrooms. The hemp and cannabis plants have a lot of different actives in there. You know, cannabis has traditionally been bred to have higher and higher amounts of THC. But, but hemp has been bred to have higher amounts of CBD. But there are I think over 100 minor cannabinoids, in both of these plants, all of which, you know, are still being studied and isolated and understood for their own, like specific benefits, you know, in the body. But, but yeah, a couple of years ago, during COVID, there was a study from Oregon State University showing that CBDa CBGa and THC A, which are like the acid form of the cannabinoids showed a lot of research that that prevented the COVID like spike protein from entering the cell. And so this was you know, big news it was on on all the late night talk shows and and got you know, especially in the in the hemp world was was a great discovery. And so yeah, we started making CBDa CBGa products THC A, you know, comes from cannabis, so it wasn't something that we could put into our hemp products. But, you know, I don't know if if taking those as what as you know, prevented me from having too, too bad of COVID symptoms the the two times I got it, or, you know, it was it was something else but but that research was was really interesting. And you know, a product that I still take, you know, with, with COVID Still going around today, you know, winter 2024

Evan H. Hirsch, MD  25:11

Interesting. And so the it sounded like you had your mother taking this product or something similar so mainly for inflammation body pain, what do you guys generally I know you can't make claims but what is it who isn't meant for?

Robert Johnson  25:30

Yeah, I mean CBD CBD is definitely great for people with inflammatory issues, but it's also good for anxiety and calm, you know, for the restless mind, we make a lot of different formulations that you know, in my belief, so much distress and an even you know, physical pain in the body physical ailments come from our mind. And so just alleviating a little bit of that stress in the morning at the end of the day, I think is what CBD is really good for and a big reason why people unless you know you have arthritis or, or a challenged immune system, I think is like the main reason that people take CBD to help them sleep to help them sort of unwind and have less anxiety.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD  26:26

And is there also a debate around how the best way to make the CBD and is one way better than another?

Robert Johnson  26:36

Yeah, you know, definitely there's, there's usually two kind of trains of thought when it comes to plant based medicines. And, you know, one is that God made it this way. So the closest that we can, you know, preserve the, the compound at the plant as it is, and it's, you know, natural ratios, right, for example, you take, you take a hemp plant, and you just extract what's what's in there. And you have a combination of CBD, CBG, THC, and all these minor cannabinoids and so usually though, there'll be one school of thinking that, that keeping it and preserving all the properties to it even like the terpenes and, and everything else that's in there is is the best way. And then there's usually another school of thought that is like kind of more I wouldn't say more scientific but but rather their their approach to product manufacturing is sort of isolating each one of the the cannabinoids or the actives in, in a plant and then recreating or creating your own formulation based on that. So you can you can take a hemp plant and reduce it all the way to what is called a CBD isolate. So something that is like 99.9% just pure CBD it looks like like a white powder. And then people will will use that and then isolates of other cannabinoids kind of make their own cocktail, if you will, based on you know, their research and and and what they think is going to be the best, you know ratio of the cannabinoids together, I think that that both are valid, and both you know will show up the same you know, you can you can recreate nature to some degree, right if you if you take every thing that's in a natural extract, you could also recreate a very similar version of that all from isolated cannabinoids, even terpenes. And so I I personally, I like the ability to manipulate and make your own cocktail. But I also you know, see a lot of merit and just, you know, preserving things in the natural sort of essence that they are in nature.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD  29:14

So let's talk a little bit about quality. So, you know, oftentimes when we're looking for products we're looking for organic is organic, important in this context with CBDs with mushrooms.

Robert Johnson  29:30

Yeah, well, I mean, organic in in the US is a fine line. It's a fine line between you know what qualifies as organic, and what doesn't. And sometimes a lot of it doesn't make a lot of sense either. Like even in our facility, we use all organic ingredients, but without an organic certified facility. You can't claim that the product is organic. You can have every single product in there are ingredient in there be organic, that bottle could be made from, you know, recycled eggshells, whatever. But, but still, you know, organic is, is a lot of paperwork and, and bureaucracy, and, you know, and consequently, you know, it doesn't mean that, you know, pesticides were never used on on it either, you know, just only have to meet whatever the the letter of the law is, you know, and not use pesticides in the last two three weeks of the plant growth, for example. So, I would say that, that there's both, you know, quality products out there that are not necessarily organic and low quality products out there that claim to be organic.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD  30:56

So, yeah, so then what do you do? Yeah,

Robert Johnson  30:59

it is, it is tough to navigate. I mean, the, the ideal world you know, is, if you don't grow your own food that, you know, you're, you're a farmer and, and the less distance between you and, and the products you're consuming, or the food that you're consuming is is going to be your best bet at, at health at getting a high quality, healthy product. But I do my best to, to explain the way that functional mushroom products are made and even have on our website, like a white paper about not only you know what's in our products, but but how to read the labels of other mushroom products out there, or even just the right questions to ask. And, you know, if, if you don't get a straight answer, usually that that is your answer.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD  32:00

So it sounds like so I guess what's your relationship like with the farmers?

Robert Johnson  32:06

Yeah, so these guys that are are writing the FDA petition about fruiting body extracts and fruiting bodies and how companies that are that are using non fruiting bodies shouldn't be able to call their product mushrooms or, or put mushroom imagery on their packaging, those are the guys that we buy our fruiting body mushroom extracts from, they're a company called Nam X, and they're out of Canada. It's a father and son, group, and they've been growing and making mushroom products for 40 years now. And so when I was, you know, que seen their, their line and all their offerings, and they had, you know, every certification could answer every question, you know, far beyond my human ability to, to comprehend the answer. And, and these guys just, you know, blew me away, you know, five times better than the next best mushroom supplier that I could find here in North America. And it took me a long time I wanted to get into mushrooms longer, or you know, further back, but I didn't want to come up with something that wasn't going to be super high quality, you know, and that's, that's it just doesn't make sense to me even as a business model to spend all this time money energy in acquiring new customers, and then giving them a product that you know, is a placebo at best, or, you know, just blatantly tricking them at worst. So, it wasn't until we found these these fruiting body concentrates that we could put, you know, a really significant amount of mushrooms and two small form factors which is primarily what we do little soft gels and gummies you know, I didn't want people to have to take 17 soft gels to get you know, one one dose of mushrooms for their day.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD  34:11

Nice so it sounds like these farmers you said that the products are organic and you said that and so consequently that means that they're not using pesticides on their products is that correct?

Robert Johnson  34:23

I think that you know by by the letter of the law you can use pesticides on products up to a certain time in the in the lifecycle but that doesn't mean you're going to be consuming pesticides in the product and all the products from namics and our products are tested for pesticides and heavy metals and any contaminants but you know by when you're when you're growing them, you know preventing pests or or animals that could could eat it and destroy the crop. It's really necessary For most crops, but you know, if you flush them enough, and that's why the the laws around pesticides are, are usually some period prior to harvest, that you're not allowed to add any more or use any more pesticides to, to ensure that the water will will flush out whatever is in there. And then, you know, we don't take that on faith, but but actually, you know, test every batch and make sure that they're you know, 100% devoid of, of any potential contaminants because especially if people are have a compromised immune system, you know, that's the last thing that we want to be putting in a health product for him.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD  35:42

Excellent. So when you are doing the the testing, it sounds like you're testing every batch, which I really applaud. That's awesome. And and are you testing for under a certain threshold? Are you testing for zero?

Robert Johnson  35:57

Yeah, I mean, it's parts parts per billion. So yeah, I mean, they're, they're, it's it's pretty minut. But but not not absolute zero. But, but are there is yet not, you know, the limits of detection. So what we're looking for one part per billion, would disqualify the product if it failed, any of the, you know, 100 different metals and contaminants that we test for?

Evan H. Hirsch, MD  36:27

Very nice. So less than one part per billion is, of all those contaminants. That's wonderful. And so I know a lot of people I work with, they're interested in, in getting access to those tests. So if they contact the company, is the company able to provide some information showing? Hey, this was a this was the recent test that we did on the last batch or something. Oh, for sure. For sure. Excellent. Well done. That's awesome. So yeah, so let's pivot with the time we have left into psychedelics. So I know you've got quite a bit of knowledge on this as well. So in terms of the psychedelics, do you have knowledge beyond mushroom psychedelics, into ayahuasca and other things? Or is it mainly just the psilocybin psychedelics?

Robert Johnson  37:12

Mushrooms is the main thing that I write about, but I have done research and and written for Rolling Stone about other psychedelics as well including, but not limited to LSD, Ayahuasca, which you know, has DMT in it, and mescaline. And MDMA, MDMA actually might even are in all likelihood, will, will be psilocybin mushrooms to the first psychedelic that is federally legal, thanks to the work of this organization called maps, the multi action disciplinary for psychedelic science, or they've been around since the mid 80s. And had been a big proponent in MDMA testing, mostly for for therapeutic purposes. And yeah, so I know a little bit about it. I definitely don't know everything about anything. But you know, Julie, I'll see if I can answer

Evan H. Hirsch, MD  38:21

it for you. Yeah. So that's pretty exciting. So you said MDMA might be federally legal. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

Robert Johnson  38:29

Yeah. So Maps has been doing clinical trials for the past 30 years on, on MDMA, specifically for PTSD for treatment resistant depression. And, and yeah, that's, that's been a main goal of theirs. And recently, they actually switched from from a nonprofit organization to a for profit organization with you know, what, what plans they have in store, it seems for, you know, distributing and, and they also train psychedelic therapists, Rick Doblin is the founder of maps, and, you know, has stated that he believes, you know, we'll, we'll need 100 to 200,000 Psychedelic therapist and in the United States in the next five to seven years, as as these drugs become mainstream and legalized, and, and more and more people are curious about them and turning to them at for, you know, an alternative form of medicine.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD  39:41

Very interesting. Yeah. And so, I guess along those same lines, you know, you and I were talking kind of offline about some of the things that were happening in the government. But why do you think that like mushrooms and plant medicine and psychedelics why is this all coming to a head? In our culture now.

Robert Johnson  40:02

Yeah, great question. I mean, cannabis, cannabis legalization. I've been around since since 2008, working in cannabis professionally. And I think it's the the legalization on a state by state level is one of the best examples of activist led democracy in this country. And in my lifetime, you know, and so many people, including myself, were proponents for the legalization of cannabis and, and, you know, vehement, vehement ly disagreed with the government's take that it didn't have any medical benefits, and that it was something that that shouldn't be illegal, you know, especially compared to alcohol or nicotine and, and pharmaceuticals that can, can kill you or, or you know, do a lot of damage. And so, I think cannabis really was a gateway drug, if you will, or the legalization of mushrooms. And I think the combination of a couple of things are why mushrooms are really having a moment now, one, a couple of pieces of media, I think have been really influential to kind of approaching the mainstream about psychedelics. One is a book by Michael Poulin. It's called How to change your mind. And he's a New York Times bestselling author. Maybe one of his most famous books is The Omnivore's Dilemma. He's written a lot about food. And, and he, in 2018, published this book, from the perspective of a, you know, New York, liberal skeptic of psychedelics. And you know, they're prior to this book, you know, there's a lot of research out there about, about it being good for a variety of mental health issues. He was skeptical of this and wrote the book from that perspective, but and, you know, over the course of 400 pages, the interviews, people taking everything from Iosco to Ibogaine to mushrooms, and he himself takes basically every psychedelic drug available, and completely has an about face of that skepticism. And I think that that perspective, was really influential on on a lot of people, especially the older generation, who has been, you know, subjected to propaganda, essentially, since since Nixon, and the controlled substance act, and you know, later Nancy Reagan. And so, you know, there's a lot of undoing of that, that programming necessary. And I think, you know, having this this best selling New York Times, baby boomer was a big part of that. And then there was a documentary made by Paul Stamets and others called Fantastic fungi, which is on Netflix, if your listeners want to check that one out, I really recommend it. And you know, when I when I saw that movie, that documentary, I turned it off, I was like, wow, I mean, anybody who sees this documentary, he was going to be a potential customer of micro Buddha's because it's just so mind blowing the powers of mushrooms. Not just psychedelic, but But Paul Stamets does some really interesting research and, and projects like using mushrooms to clean up oil spills, and micro plastics in the ocean. And, you know, mushrooms are a very unique thing that that transform our environment, in our ecology, they help break down, you know, dead trees and turn them into, into rich soil. And I think that they, you know, sort of work in humans and a similar way, and just like transforming who we are molecularly and so those two pieces of media, I think were really seminal, and people being you know, exposed to the idea of magic mushrooms and, and I think micro dosing is really appealing to people because, you know, if they, if people have tried mushrooms before, maybe you know, years ago in college, and they had a really intense experience, you know, they might think oh, you know, I don't need to do that again. You know, I'm I'm in my 50s Now that was that was a you know, for for a younger man. But the the idea of micro dosing is kind of just like dipping your toe in the water and I think is a lot less troublesome or, or fear inducing, than, you know, jumping into a dark Lake and you're not Share how that's gonna go. And so I think that has been, has been huge. And then of course, we all just collectively as a planet suffered PTSD together, through through COVID. And the pandemic and the lockdown and, and supplements in general have skyrocketed, people are looking for alternative medicine, more and more people, you know, trust the government, less trust pharmaceutical companies less. And so I think that's why, you know, as a society, we're sort of moving in this in this direction. And you know, if you think, like cannabis, for example, the the government made it illegal for for almost 100 years. And then, you know, you start to think, as it's becoming legal and you try it, and it's, and it's, you know, so great. Well, what else is what else is the government been lying to me about? You know, and I think people are just really starting to, to think for themselves and sort of unsubscribe from from the propaganda and the programming that we've all been used to.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD  46:13

Yeah, I think that's a lot of great insight. The, you know, I've definitely found utility personally, you utilizing psychedelics for helping to get rid of my trauma, and I've seen other people do the same. And I think that, you know, a lot of people another reason why I think it's more prevalent, or why people are having more awareness around it is because people are realizing that they that everybody has trauma, and they want ways in order to get rid of their trauma so that they can live the life that they're meant to live. And so yeah, it can, I think it can just be really powerful. So, Bob, I really appreciate you coming on today. So tell people where they can learn more about the work you do the offerings that you have.

Robert Johnson  47:02

Yeah, well, micro boosts.com. It's spelled with a y m y CRO like mycology, the study of mushrooms is spelled with a Y so on our website, we have a lot of educational blogs about each individual mushroom, the benefits of them. The benefits of mushroom coffee on our Instagram, which is just at micro boost, I'm talking about all different types of mushroom, functional psychedelic, my favorite pizza toppings, and, and showing up behind the scenes sort of video and, and action of me on the road speaking at at conventions, and our facility here in Los Angeles, you know, making the product and you know, showing the care that goes into it. And then I have 10 articles now on Rolling Stone. So if you if you check out Robert Johnson, Rolling Stone psychedelics, you'll find my profile page, and I write about both functional mushrooms and psychedelics. And one article that included some, some non mushroom psychedelics in there, too.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD  48:11

Very cool. Thank you so much for joining me today. Really appreciate you taking the time.

Robert Johnson  48:16

Yeah, likewise. Yeah, great conversation. Thank you.

Evan H. Hirsch, MD  48:20

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