Trauma, Psychedelics & Healing Lyme with Heather Gray, FDN-P
Episode 104:
Trauma, Psychedelics & Healing Lyme with Heather Gray, FDN-P and Evan H. Hirsch, MD
Evan H. Hirsch, MD 00:04
Hey everybody, welcome back to the energy MD podcast where we help people with long COVID and chronic fatigue MECFS and mast cell activation syndrome, find and fix the real root causes of their illness so that they can live a life that they really enjoy. So I'm really excited about today's topic, because we're going to be talking about Lyme and mold from a number of different perspectives, including the bio energetics perspective. From my set, my friend, my friend, my friend, heather gray. So let's learn a little bit about Heather. So meet heather gray, a Functional Diagnostic Nutritionist and bioenergetics practitioner specializing in supporting clients with chronic and complex illnesses such as Lyme disease, mold toxicity and autoimmune diseases. With over 32 years of personal experience, she understands the struggles of living with these conditions and is dedicated to helping others find relief. Her personalized approach as a practitioner, podcast host and author has helped countless clients reduce inflammation in their body and brain, improve gut health and achieve optimal wellness. She helps her clients get to the root cause of their symptoms and helps them take control of their health journey. Heather's approach is not only effective, but also empowering. I love that. Don't let chronic illness control your life, you can achieve the health and vitality you deserve. Heather, thanks so much for joining me today.
Heather Gray, FDN-P 01:26
Evan, I'm so excited. Whoo.
Evan H. Hirsch, MD 01:28
Yeah, me too. So let's talk a little bit about kind of the big picture, let's just kind of dive into it here. So somebody walks into your office or sees you online and you're having a one on one call with them. You've talked with me offline about things that people are missing. But what does this first step look like? And then we can kind of get into what you find that people are missing?
Heather Gray, FDN-P 01:55
Yeah, absolutely. Um, you know, typically, when people come in, I have them start off with the Intake Forms right off the bat, they're always looking. There's we've, as functional practitioners are so many of us out there that are just, you know, kind of in a box, here's your, here's your protocol. Here's the same labs that I run on the same people. And it's the same thing. I found with a lot of Lyme clients, they've had to be their own health advocate for so long, right, just like myself, that a lot of times they come to me with these beautiful pieces already in place, but a lot of times they're out of order, or they just might be missing a little corner piece off a one. And so I I started off with a 600 question intake form, you know, medical history, all kinds of stuff, and it really helps tease out, you know, is it lime? Is it mold? Is it a parasite? Is it all of the above, you know, because you really do have to tackle these things in the correct order. Otherwise, you're gonna end up spending more money, more time and having to go back to finish, you know, do steps over when, when things aren't done in the correct order. So that's typically how I'll start with folks, it's just to see to if we're a fit, you know, because really, when you're working with a functional, you know, Coach, like myself, we're really dialing in the lifestyle, the mindset, the diet, the, you know, the really hard stuff that people don't want to deal with, you know, we've just been conditioned for a pill for every ill and a lot of folks just, you know, give me the quick fix. And, you know, I'm usually the one that's like, Man, I gotta, I gotta dump your life upside down and see, you know, what can stay and what can go because if nothing changes, nothing changes, or, you know, like Dr. Joe Dispenza, his book, you know, breaking the habit of being yourself, like, we can't make a new paradigm with all the old tools and all the old thinking, so of course, things are gonna have to change. And so that's the biggest way I start with folks is, is just really getting a good handle on what it is they're going through what they've already tried, you know, where they're at, in their journey and meeting them there.
Evan H. Hirsch, MD 03:55
Yeah, I think that's really powerful, being able to, you know, for people to realize that, you know, the reason why they got here is in a significant part mindset, right, and who they are, and the way that they think about the world. But it can also be scary, right for people to kind of like make those changes. So what are you essentially asking people to do when it comes to making those changes? It is, is it like a mindset practice? Is it meditating every day? Like, what do you like to see?
Heather Gray, FDN-P 04:21
So it's funny in the beginning, because I'm kind of a rip the band aid off type of girl, right? So with me, I was just like, you want me to do all the things, no problem. And then I'm finding out that I'm a really small percentage of people who do things that way. So I had to start working with my clients a little slower. And actually, Dr. Tom O'Brien taught me that when when he came on, he's like, you know, the first month, I might have them go gluten free. And then the second month, we work on dairy free, and then the third month and I'm like, Oh, that's interesting, because I usually just take, you know, right off the bat, I want you gluten free, grain free, dairy free, you know, and then my people are like, Ah, so there's a gentler approach I'm finding out, you know, go figure that this is really a marathon, it's not a race, you didn't get sick overnight, and it's not going to be overnight. And so I've, I've really settled in with my clients to give them the expectation three months, six months, nine months, a year, sometimes a year and a half, two years. You know, it's one thing I love about Dr. Rawls, when he talks about his Lyme journey is that it took him three to five years to get better. And he was one of the first practitioners out there that I heard, really giving that honest estimate of time. All too often I think people get caught up with some of this gimmicky crap, this marketing stuff that we put out there, I fell for with the business stuff, you know, build your business and reach six figures in three months? No, it doesn't work that way. Like it might work for a 1% of a person who tries it. Everybody else. It's a huge failure. And it's the same thing with health. There are no shortcuts, do not pass go do not collect $200. It's, you know, those little incremental steps that add up to big wins by the end of the year, you know, so it's, it's, you know, looking at your environment, and what can we detox out of your environment? Or do you have those crappy for breeze, you know, plugins and scented candles in laundry detergent, all that stuff just wreaks havoc on your liver and your hormones. You know, what kind of thoughts? Are you thinking every day? What are you eating? And so it's this systematic approach. So like I said, kind of, you know, replacing the bad with the good, replacing the bad with the good, you know, so that people don't feel one overwhelmed to like they're missing out. Because, you know, having a chronic illness to begin with can frickin suck, you already feel isolated, you already feel like so, so different. So the last thing you want, is to feel that way, but at the same time, there's kind of got to be an aspect of that. Because if you want to continue to eat society's food and eat, what's the norm and do what's the norm, you're going to continue to get the norm, you know, autoimmune diseases and the mental health stuff that's on the rise and the cancer and the diabetes, like, at some point, you got to get off the crazy training and start doing something different.
Evan H. Hirsch, MD 07:05
And so it sounds like doing those things first, like starting to like setting up the foundations is important. It
Heather Gray, FDN-P 07:14
was for me, absolutely. And a lot of folks like after 27 years have undiagnosed Lyme disease, mold toxicity, three autoimmune diseases to suicide attempts. The doctor just put napalm was just throwing napalm at my Lyme disease he went to he was going to war with a body that hadn't worked properly in over 20 years. Right. I thought I was going to die at that time. You know, and it was funny. That's when I you know, as a silly hairstylist at the time, I didn't have any medical background. But I heard on a podcast. You know, Ray Davis talking with Sean Croxton, you know, back in 2013. On how you got to make sure that detox pathways are open and you got to make sure the hormones are balanced. You got to look for other HIDDEN stressors in the body. And I was just like, holy shit that makes sense. Like this is this is my answer. Because at the time nobody was asking me if I was pooping daily, and I wasn't I was basically constipated. From being a child. I was born full of shit. Like I was constipated to subs for, you know, nobody was asking me what my stress level was like, it was horrible. I was in a horrific marriage. That was no bueno. I was sick all the time. I wasn't sleeping, you know, all these foundational things. It's amazing what happens when I doubt a lot of that stuff in with folks, three months, four months, five months. A lot of times they actually don't have to go in and you know, quote, unquote, treat things because our bodies put them in check where it's supposed to because we've got these beautiful healing capabilities in our bodies that are especially with Lyme disease. But most people don't realize that we have coexisted with this bacteria for 1000s of years. You know, it was found in an Italian Alps and a mummy, you know, four or 5000 years ago. So our bodies recognize it, I think there's been some things that have made it a little bit more virulent that you know, the 5g and, you know, lower immune systems with vaccines. And you know, I mean, that's a whole nother rabbit hole, but our bodies know what to do. I think innately and I think when we give it the tools that it needs, and then we remove the boulders, miracles can happen.
Evan H. Hirsch, MD 09:22
Like that, give it the tools that it needs and then removes the boulders. So then, how do you help people reprogram their thoughts? Whoo,
Heather Gray, FDN-P 09:32
that's a good one. So it was funny, it was like 2020 and I had my all my symptoms were starting to come back. I was gaining weight again. I was being reactive, I was bitchy. I was in pain. You know, all those Karen's in the world have compassion because most people don't act that way. Without some reason to act that way right like Karen's or Karen's, because they don't feel good something is not right with them. So have compassion for the character, the World. Speaking as a reformed Karen, I did all the functional things again. And I kept relapsing, you know, and that's what's so great. You did all the supplements, did the diet, clean myself up six months, a year later, I would relapse. And I did that for about three years in a row. And finally, in 2020, I was like, What am I missing? And, you know, my uncle had committed suicide when I was four. I was raised by alcoholics, addicts in poverty, the majority of my life, you know, there was a lot of childhood trauma that set me up to be a good host for a lot of these things. And for you know, the ACE scores, the higher the ACE score, you know, the higher of a chance with autoimmune as you get older. So I got a lot of that blocked out. Like I didn't even remember this trauma, but my body did. And that's where it started. I was reading the book, the body keeps score that you've ever read. It's brilliant. It's ridiculously triggering. Like, I'm on the couch, ugly crying, you know? And my husband's like, what are you reading? I'm like, this little girl and her dad. And he's like, no, no, I don't want to hear it. But it was the first time that it was brought to my attention to you know, our autonomic nervous system and fight or flight and you can't heal when you're in fight or flight and you know, things like, neuro Pro. Oh my gosh. Not NLP, but um, yeah. Were you rewiring the brain? Where the brain sees itself? plasticity? neuroplasticity? No, crap. I can't believe I forgot the name. I just said it like an hour ago. Anywho. Um, but like Somatic Experiencing work breathwork bioenergetic stuff, plant medicine, you know. So from there, I went and did ayahuasca and I've done two psilocybin journeys. I've done two Bufo journeys. And actually, last month, I did two weeks of low dose ketamine, you know, and each time I do these things, it just gives me enough bandwidth in my nervous system to be able to handle what it is that I'm doing next. Right, because I was just wound so tight for so long. With the mold with the line, there's so many things that can cause trauma. You know, in the nervous system, we often think of traumas, like trauma, but it can also be toxins, heavy metals, you know, viruses, bacteria, inflammation, alcohol, you know, so many things. And I just, I had the perfect the perfect storm for all of that. And so, you know, I teach a lot of, like I said, somatic experiencing work, it's so sad to because we have been brainwashed, a pill for every ill and that a lot of these things, a lot of these tools. One once you learn them, they're free. And to be can be ridiculously simple. I had a client, you worked with me for a year and a half. My anxiety is really bad today. Can you give me another supplement? Have you done your shoes? Have you gone out and grounded? Have you done your breath? Work your box breathing? Have you done? You know, and I just kept going down the line? And you know, no, no, no, no. And I'm like, I'm sorry that you haven't, that you're not understanding how important this stuff is like the there's research behind it, too. It's not just woowoo out there. There's research behind this stuff. But you have to take the time, you have to set yourself up for success. You know, I usually tell my clients, the best time to do it is right before you eat, right? Because if you can get your body into rest and digest before you eat, like how many Americans have gut digestive issues and doing something like a couple rounds of box breathing before they eat like game changer.
Evan H. Hirsch, MD 13:33
Yeah, that's, that's a really good idea. So I wanted to find a couple of things that you mentioned. So what is a Karen for those people who out there who are over the age of 40?
Heather Gray, FDN-P 13:46
Yes, unfortunately, I got I have so many good friends named Karen and I hate what we've done with the name, but it was just a derogatory, you know, expression that came about, I don't know, probably around 2020 I think around COVID Maybe a little sooner about people who are just, you know, busy bodies, cranky, you know, just, you know, the Karen's of the world and so reactive. Just not very nice. You know, it was kind of a derogatory term when you said that most people knew Oh, yeah. That was definitely me. Parents. I know poor parents. I actually am I'm doing stand up right now. And in my bit, I talked about how I'm changing. I don't want to call people Karen's anymore because I don't want to shit on women. And instead, I changed the name to Stan. And so when Stan's acting up, I can go yell. Shut up, Stan. You know, it's just it's a lot more fun.
Evan H. Hirsch, MD 14:40
I love that you do stand up. I could totally see you doing stand up. You know Dr.
Heather Gray, FDN-P 14:44
Shay, right. Yeah, I know. Sam che so he lives just in the town next to me and I literally met him for lunch one day, within five minutes of talking to him. He's like, have you because he's a stand up. He's like, Have you ever thought of doing stand up? I'm like, no, why? He's like, Are you kidding? He's like, look how expressive you are. He's like, Do you have any trauma in your life? And I said, How much time do you have? And so he, he wrangled me into the stand up class. And we actually have our first showcase next month in a couple of weeks. So, um, I actually got on stage for the first time last night in front of people and tried it out. It was nerve racking. And it went really well. I had a lot of fun. It was the wrong crowd, when I walked in, my jokes are made for people in their like, mid 40s. Plus, I walked in, it's a college town, and they were all 21 year old dudes. And I was like, Oh, shit, my audience. But I still got some good laughs and I had, it was good practice.
Evan H. Hirsch, MD 15:43
Nice. Yeah, that's awesome. Good on you. And then what are boos,
Heather Gray, FDN-P 15:48
Vu, so the nervous system. So the vagus nerve, you know, has got its little tendrils, and all sorts of aspects of the body. And when it's not working properly, that's when we can kind of get stuck in that fight or flight or nervous system gets a little revved up. So those are chanting, singing gargling, these are all ways to stimulate the vagus nerve to calm down. So I actually learned this from Dr. Amy opinion, she was my first real into Somatic Experiencing work, she's got a 21 day, you know, reset course that absolutely changed my life and 21 days, my nervous system was completely different. Awesome, but my favorite one is called a push away with a VO and it's, you actually act like you're pushing a boulder away, like where you're flexing your arms. Because a lot of us too, with these chronic illnesses have a tendency to be a little on the empathic side. And so everybody's energy is always right here. And we feeling everything. And if you can push out that energetic bubble, give yourself some space, and at the same time you're doing a movie, you know, the whole time. And it just, it's amazing. I mean, every time I get a little revved my husband will see me in the grocery store, sometimes I can still be a little on the careness side, especially with people sometimes I don't people the greatest out in the regular public. And he can see me getting frustrated at the grocery store. And I'll just stand there, and I stopped doing my views and my push away. You know, he's, it's good, because then he knows, you know, I'm not gonna get charged for murder that day. So it's great.
Evan H. Hirsch, MD 17:21
That's awesome. Yeah. So it's so great to have tools and techniques, right, so that people can feel empowered, you know, which is something that you mentioned, that's so important as part of this process, you know, there is, you know, the, you know, when you go to see somebody and you want them to help you, you know, you have to you have to remember that, that you have to apply all these things, right, you know, we can only we can only say things so many times, but you have to the client has to take ownership and they have to apply these things, right? And do you find that the people who do these, these fundamentals, these foundational things do better in your programs?
Heather Gray, FDN-P 17:59
Oh, 110% 110%. And then I never see or hear from them again, which is great, right? Because they have their tools, they have the how to book, you know, that I've given him and they take those tools, and they go off into their healthy sunset and I don't really hear from him again, which is awesome. That's what I want. I don't want clients for life, I want people to be empowered, and know how they can handle and tackle this crazy ass world.
Evan H. Hirsch, MD 18:28
I love that. All right, so let's kind of jump into relationships kind of on this in the same realm, you know, where you're talking about how all the toxins that people kind of have and all the trauma that they have. And and they have to look around their life and whether it's a it's a nasty air freshener, or whether it's their relationships, they have to kind of start cleaning things up. So how do you recommend that people clean up toxic relationships?
Heather Gray, FDN-P 18:52
Well, remember the whole pull the band aid off, I'm gonna pull the band aid off type of girl, I kind of did the same thing with my relationships. I just I severed them. The last time I spoke to my mother, she called me every name in the book. And it was over a misunderstanding over something. I didn't even say it was my son. And you know, she could have said, I heard this did you say this? She just came straight for the jugular and her main mission in life was to tear me down. I stopped talking to myself that way. I don't allow anybody to talk to me that way. And since then, that was back in 2020. So I do I haven't spoken to my mother and my father, any of my siblings. Like complete orphan. I felt like for quite some time until I actually started like hanging out with the mindshare family and building my community and other ways. So I have another adoptive family, but for the most part, I haven't spoken to my biological family in four years now. And it's the best mental health I've ever had. Because like I said, I didn't even realize I was talking to myself so poorly until my husband pointed it out one day, he was like stop talking to my wife that way. And it's like stopped me cold in my tracks. And I was like Like, Oh, right. And then once I started making those healthy boundaries with myself, like, I didn't allow anybody, and I won't, I still won't like if you, you know, there's, there's a place for anger, there's a place for arguments. I'm not saying that but the nasty bully toxic break someone down, there's no room for that. Absolutely none. And that was part of the Yeah, the cleaning house is
Evan H. Hirsch, MD 20:26
so important and so hard, you know, for people who are in, let's say, a toxic spousal relationship, right? And, and oftentimes, they may not get better until they get out of that relationship, or until they change that relationship, right? You know, because oftentimes, in order to change the relationship, we have to change ourselves, right? So if we create those boundaries, and we stop talking to ourselves in those ways, and then we don't let anybody else that person has to change, otherwise, the relationship is going to be severed. Is that what you see as well? Oh, absolutely. 110% Yeah, and that helps, because then you're not telling people, Hey, you have to end your relationship with everybody in your life, right? It's kind of like, it's changing yourself, and it's changing those boundaries. And inherently, then you you can make you can, you can sever those relationships like you did, or you can make different choices in relationship.
Heather Gray, FDN-P 21:15
And it's like, know, a difference than being an addict. You know, a lot of times, you know, addicts, when they get clean, and they get out of rehab, you know, one of the first steps they have to do is they have to stop associating with all the triggers, and the people that kept them sick, you know, it's no different. And, again, if nothing changes, nothing changes. If you're going to continue to stay in that toxic soup environment, you're not going to get better, you know, so, getting out of denial. And like I said, once you really do start the self love, you don't there's, you don't allow that type of stuff anymore. It just it's just it's such a disconnect, right? Like, who are you talking to like that? Are you talking to me?
Evan H. Hirsch, MD 21:57
Yeah, and when you when you said addiction, I thought you were going to talk about addiction to thoughts, which I think is a really interesting thing, you know, right, where we get into these patterns of how we talk to ourselves, and all that sort of stuff. And so and so it sounds like that you help people stop talking to themselves in a negative way. Is there a certain technique that you have? Or how do you? How do you change those things? How do you help people identify how they're speaking to themselves, and then change it?
Heather Gray, FDN-P 22:26
You know, a lot of times, it's just awareness, you know, we can change what we're aware of. And awareness is key. And so I usually have people start off by reading Dr. Joe's book, breaking the habit of being yourself. You know, I've heard other things where people, I think it was JJ, who was talking about, one of her mentors had her do a rubber band. And every time she thought something funky of herself, you know, she was supposed to snap the rubber band. So just bringing awareness that's there, you know, and being like, thank you, for the awareness. Love you. That's not true by, you know, sending it love, because it's coming from a wounded place a lot of times. And so that's why some of this deep this trauma work is really helpful to go along with it. Because it can be really hard to try to change those patterns, if you also aren't changing the stuck trauma in your nervous system, because a lot of spiritual bypassing can happen, unfortunately, where we're just like centered positivity to everything, and it'll be okay. No bullshit, you need to address that four year old that didn't get held and couldn't understand why her uncle committed suicide, you need to address you know, send those parts of you love because they're still part of you, in aspect, right. And anytime we try to cut off or bury a certain part of ourselves, that's usually when autoimmune disease starts happening, we get stuff stuck in different organs, you know, emotions, and so be awareness and working on the trauma stuff, the nervous system stuff, and then and then sending it love what parts, a lot of it is just, we are so frickin busy these days, sitting five minutes, and asking your body, what is it that I'm supposed to focus on today? Or what's coming up today? Or if you have a pain, asking that pain in the shoulder, like, what's going on? And then sitting with it and listening for the answer, like I know it sounds silly. Nine times out of 10 The answer comes, it's crazy when I actually do it for myself is I'll sit with something and be like, Oh, God, this has been killing me for days. And then once I bring attention to it, the pain goes away. You know, there's something that your body is trying to try to tell you. And we just gotten so disconnected. You know, there's, again, we're back to that. You got an upset stomach, you know, diarrhea, you know, we make even cute little songs about it to buy over the counter stuff, right to suppress all these little symptoms and things that our body's trying to tell us instead of actually just taking the time to listen to what our body's trying to tell us.
Evan H. Hirsch, MD 24:59
Oh, that's brilliant. I had a I had a similar insight when I did my first Ayahuasca ceremony. And it was basically the, the experience of discomfort. And I was I was like nauseous for an extended period of time, and I don't like discomfort at all. And so it was I was, you know, but I was paying attention to it. And I was just looking at it. And I was asking it questions, right. And it provided me that that moment of pause and that mindfulness where I could, I could then ask those questions, and then I could get that insight where all of a sudden, then then it went away. And I was like, Oh, you mean, I just have to kind of like, pay attention to the discomfort that I'm experiencing. And and send it some love. And it's gonna go away. And the body was like, Yeah, I was like, Oh, well, that's, that's really interesting. Exactly. And so, I mean, I love the fact that you're also kind of pursuing the psychedelic path, because I found that to be very helpful for me as well. And especially in the realm of mindfulness, where it kind of like slows everything down for me, and I'm able to see all the judgments or the non judgement when I'm in that sensation. But like, it's like, I'm having a conversation with somebody, or I'm just existing. And I'm like, where are all the judgments that I'm normally having on a moment to moment basis? Like, Where have those gone? And so I feel like that's how psychedelics have really helped me is by especially with the mindfulness, what is your experience been? Has it been is with the psychedelics? Has it been the mindfulness? Is it the self love? What's what's benefited you?
Heather Gray, FDN-P 26:33
It was an entryway into my emotions. I belong to a personality profiling group, and bolder. It's called Higher alignment. It's like personality profiling on steroids. But they have a communication link. And it's, you know, you have the combination of Think, Act feel. And that's me, actually, I'm a think, I think, first I get into action. And then I feel but I actually have a hard time getting into my feelings. I kind of stay in this think act loop. And so all this trauma, all this stuff that I've been through, and it's quite horrific. I never once spent time crying, I never grieved, I never felt any of it. And so like that first Ayahuasca journey, I wailed, I've never heard myself make those noises before I cried, at a depth that I didn't even know was possible, my second psilocybin journey, I should do not if you would have picked up the tissues that were around me at the very end of it and weighed it, it probably would have weighed two pounds worth a snot and tears like that seems to be my MO is really letting myself deep feel. The ketamine was fascinating, because that's one of the brilliant parts about ketamine is it lets you go to these dark, dark places in a slightly disassociated face where you're not, you know, where it's not so heavy, like other psychedelics. And it was fascinating to visit some of these areas of my life, because that was the other problem that I worried about a lot, because my memory was gone. Gone, like from age 16. And below, gone? Well, partly from Lyme disease, partly from mold toxicity and partly from trauma, my body was trying to protect itself, right? And so like crap, how on earth am I going to heal this stuff that I don't even know what happened. And that's been the beautiful part about ketamine, too, is it actually helps bring back and so remembering some of these things, and bit but not being just taken down by him, but being able to be like a an observer and being like, oh, that's what happened. That's why I act that way. When bla bla bla, bla bla, it's just been, it's just been fascinating. It's just, I, it's been such a cool journey. I never in a million years, but I thought that I would have been that person. And then the last couple of years, like I said, done all these different journeys, and it's just each one has just brought me back to myself and a more whole, joyful, loving, lighter. I just, there's such gifts, such gifts. So we live in such a cool time right now that we're we're able to play and really learn from these medicines.
Evan H. Hirsch, MD 29:12
I agree. And so how do you? How do you coach people on when to incorporate some of the psychedelics? I mean, do you talk to your clients about it? And if so, when do you tell them that it's a good idea to partake?
Heather Gray, FDN-P 29:28
That's a good question. You know, technically it typically I'll, I'll, I'll use those tools kind of towards the end when we've really, you know, if we're hidden, I'd say nine times out of 10. When why I'm already working with the mindset stuff, the toxins, the trauma, the foundations, we move the needle great. I kind of saved the psychedelic stuff for last if I'm having a tough time breaking through with somebody, and then it's like, okay, well, maybe we need some some bigger, heavier hitters than what I can provide And then that's when I'll have them go that direction. Because it's not something that I do. And you know, in some places, it's not even still legal. And so you know, it's a whole, it's a whole thing up on its own. But yeah, if people are open to it, and they asked me about it, I absolutely, uh, you know, if you can do that, while we're doing this other stuff, certainly going to help speed the process up faster, and have you come to other awarenesses, but a lot of times people are coming to me still on a lot of pharmaceuticals. And so we kind of have to work getting the body stable, they got to work with their doctor, because there's a lot of, you know, contraindications with pharmaceuticals and some psychedelics, you know, so? Yeah. So it's kind of a complicated question. But I usually don't break that can of worms open, unless I'm running into a person where I just have not been able to move the needle with all my other tools first.
Evan H. Hirsch, MD 30:53
Yeah, that's a whole ball of wax for sure. Let's come back to something that you said before about when we initially started about kind of the big picture of filling in the gaps. And there's a particular order that people should really go through in order to heal in terms of, I think, removing these different toxins in the body and kind of setting up the foundation. So what is that order? What does that look like?
Heather Gray, FDN-P 31:17
You know, I said, it kind of depends on the person, but there are you know, and I'm drawing a blank right now, which is funny, because I was hoping you weren't gonna bring this up. Because when we asked it before, and I said it, and I'm like, God, I hope he doesn't ask me to go into detail with that one. Because at the moment, I am drawing a blank. But I there's an order, Is it heavy metals, heavy metals, before parasites or parasites before everything else? No, it's heavy metals before parasites, right?
Evan H. Hirsch, MD 31:44
It depends on? Yeah, I mean, I mean, parasites oftentimes are a reservoir, right? So they hold all the toxins. And so getting them out. First is always recommended. But I also find that that's really hard on the body. Right. So I do think that you have to oftentimes do heavy metals before parasites and other infections, but I was curious about your opinion.
Heather Gray, FDN-P 32:03
So yeah, so what I meant to was a lot of times people get hung up on what the buzzword is, right. So even a few years ago, it was like Candida or SIBO. And everybody gets tied up into Oh, it's the deal with Candida or the SIBO instead of no y or do you have the Candida is people near you? They're typically a symptom. Even same thing with H. Pylori, right? It's a symptom of something else. So let's go downstream and look at what's causing you to have a candida issue which typically can be you know, heavy metals, right, other parasites. And I learned that when the hard way to when I was in FDN. And so that was one of the things I went straight after Candida first not addressing other parasites and bacteria and not realizing that Candida can actually live off of other creatures excrement, right? So even though I was starving myself of sugar, and doing this hardcore Candida, because I hadn't dealt with the parasites or the bacteria first, the Candida was still getting fed to a certain degree. Does that make sense? Okay, so that's kind of what I meant earlier. But yeah, I was having a bit of a brain fart there.
Evan H. Hirsch, MD 33:11
It's all good. And in terms of Lyme, do you find that going after the coinfections? First, is makes people more successful?
Heather Gray, FDN-P 33:23
It depends on what they're presenting with. It depends on you know, I kind of really with system symptomatology, you know, what are what are their things that they're complaining about? Worst of and is it more of something goes going towards Bart or, or lime? Or is it you know, a Babesia thing, you know, trying to hit that, that thing that's going to really move the needle for them the fastest so that they don't lose hope. Right, get discouraged. So it just kind of depends on on what they're presenting with.
Evan H. Hirsch, MD 33:54
So I know that you use the cell core products. So do you think that the worms that are coming out from taking Mimosa pudica are actually worms? Or do you think that it's the biofilm that's coming out?
Heather Gray, FDN-P 34:11
I think it can be a little bit of both because I noticed too, especially when I do coffee enemas, you know, I was starting to get things and I couldn't quite tell like what is that? Is that a worm? Or is that mucus Right? Or is that the biofilm like what is that and so I actually had taken a few of those in and they didn't test positive for worms. And so I think it can be kind of tricky with what comes out really dialing on on what exactly it could or can't be unless you have it taken to a lab and dissected on what it is because I for the longest time. I thought they looked like parasites but turns out they were just mucus or biofilm
Evan H. Hirsch, MD 34:49
well, and what's interesting too, is that you know, when people used to bring parasites into my office and we would send them off to the lab, nine times out of 10 the lab would say No sample received, like we knew that we were actually putting something into the container before we sent it off. But it got dissolved or digested on its way. And then I heard from Dr. Klinghardt, one time speak about how parasites can digest themselves. And generally they don't survive very long outside of the body. So, you know, sometimes the testing and the testing is generally highly inaccurate because of this, where oftentimes they can digest themselves, but you're telling
Heather Gray, FDN-P 35:28
me it still could be a parasite. It wasn't just mucus. That's fascinating.
Evan H. Hirsch, MD 35:31
That's what it Yeah, that's what I wonder, and I'm not entirely sure. You know, I haven't had a lot of really good success utilizing Mimosa pudica. So what's your experience been in using it?
Heather Gray, FDN-P 35:43
You know, I've used it with some clients that absolutely swore by it. I did the higher doses and they say that you can get quite gnarly with the dosing to get stuff to move. And I, the only time I really got some funkiness to come out, it was after listening to Dr. Clean heart in a confiscated interview that he had done. Like this wasn't supposed to come to light to the general public, but I had a friend it was my friend who did the interview with him. And he was talking about MMS enemas. And he was saying that they're even more powerful than, you know, rectal ozone as far as getting out something called rope parasites. And you know, be back in the day. Well, I still kind of am I'm like, I'm down to try anything, you know, because that's just the Lyme person, you know, we have had to really do some weird outside of the box stuff to get better. Unfortunately controversial, like, yes, please, the more controversial, the better. So he's talking about MMS enemas. And that was the part that got cut from the interview. And I went ahead and tried it. And sure enough, I did have stuff come out of me that I have never seen before and I've never seen since. And maybe it's time to try another MMS enema. But, but yeah, it's, it's fascinating, you know, and if you go to the cell core conferences, they'll show you pictures of people with, you know, tapeworms, and flukes and all this craziness that comes up. I'm slightly jealous because I'm like, Oh, I've never seen any of that before. I want to see that. Right now. I'm taking a high dose ivermectin because I felt like I'm dealing with something and my doctor put me on some ivermectin and I've been, like I said, and then hitting the coffee enemas and I still just poo.
Evan H. Hirsch, MD 37:23
So let's talk about breaking up the biofilm. So oftentimes, when we're, we're killing off infections, we're kind of getting rid of what's outside the biofilm. And then there's a time to kind of like break up the biofilm and let let the bugs out. First off, do you agree with that? Do you think we have to like break the biofilm? And number two, if you do agree with that, then how do you how do you order it? Or how do you time it in your treatment?
Heather Gray, FDN-P 37:53
You know, yes. And all of its Yes. And too many people I think put too much emphasis and go at it a little too hardcore, not realizing or forgetting that our intestines are also you know, made of biofilm. You know, the saliva and stuff in our mouth, you know, it's biofilm. And so we can't just like inflammation gets a bad rap, right? Inflammation is there for a reason in the right amount. So it's kind of the same thing with biofilm. And so if you start going after it too hard, I think you're gonna cause other problems down the line. But there is because you know, mine is so stealthy and so many other other these critters are so stealthy covering themselves up in our immune system in the biofilm and hiding that yes, you do have to, I think break some of that down to really, you know, get in there where the bugs are. You know, some of my favorite like gentle ones. I mean, it was stevia like Nutrigenetics makes a stevia ash extract that's supposed to be really awesome on biofilm. And I've had some really great luck with it. And it tastes good.
Evan H. Hirsch, MD 39:00
It does. What about you? What
Heather Gray, FDN-P 39:05
are some of your favorites?
Evan H. Hirsch, MD 39:07
For breaking up the biofilm? Yeah, yeah, well, I agree with you, I find that oftentimes the you know, if you break up biofilm too soon, then all of a sudden you're just increasing total body load of all the toxins, right. So I also liked the neutral medics products and moving more and more to those products because for ease of use, you know, they can be combined all in one glass, they you know, it gives you a little bit more flexibility in terms of, you have to take, you know, just one drop of those isn't going to necessarily give you as much die off as you get like with Byron White formulas which are so potent, that sometimes you put one drop on the hands and all of a sudden there's a whole bunch of die off. So I do like I do like the neutral medics and they do help with some of the biofilm stuff. But then I'm using you know, not to kinase or serrapeptase and, you know, for some people we have to start off with sprinkles. You know, that's kind of the joke with like the EM cast or the mass activation people, right? Is that you have to start off with sprinkles just because they're going to react to it. But you know, a capsular to a day, depending on who they are and how much how much they have to how much they have kind of like under inside the biofilm.
Heather Gray, FDN-P 40:14
Yeah, absolutely love the serpent serrapeptase from nutria metrics as well, such an awesome product.
Evan H. Hirsch, MD 40:21
It's a good product for sure. So we got a couple of minutes left here. So I want to I want to talk fast. All right, it was a lot of fun. I want to talk about the Nikki, the wearable device that you recommend. Tell us about it.
Heather Gray, FDN-P 40:37
Yeah, so at the end of it, so funny. So like regular medicine is where we're used to working and it's a pill for every ill and then we had functional medicine come along, and we're like, we get to the root cause. And then I started finding out there was actually another little layer that a lot of people aren't addressing, and that's the bioenergetic field, we're bioenergetic beings, we're electrical beings, right. And if, you know we can measure our, our magnetic field around our heart, with an EKG, we can, you know, measure the brain with an EEG. And if if these magnetic fields aren't in coherence with each other, we're going to have disease we're going to have disruption within the body. And so we need these things like a symphony to all talk with one another and work with one another. And if we're out of sync, even with the earth biomagnetic field, right, that's why something so simple, like grounding or earthing, you know, putting your feet on on the ground, the bare ground, 20 minutes a day can be such a change in a person's, I have a funny story, my stepson, he was acting all angsty, kind of like little ass like crawling out of his skin. And he just was being just not being nice. And I sent him outside, I said, I want you to go sit outside, put your feet on the ground for 20 minutes, don't come back in and he fought me on it. When he came back in I kid you not that kid was a completely different kid, by just getting out from underneath his computer, the frickin fluorescent lights, you know, the Wi Fi get outside feet on the ground, completely different kid. So our bio energetic field, a lot of times, if we're not, you know, like I said, talking to a properly, a lot of the physical things that we're doing art could have its full effect. Supplements, the way we take in minerals, like all of it is affected. And so there's so many amazing programs out right now that are great for diagnostic. But I really had a hard time finding something that actually moved the needle as far as helping a person feel better. And I had the the founder of of Nikki on my podcast, and I just absolutely fell in love with him and with the with the work. And he sent me a few and total gamechanger. It's so it doesn't actually diagnose anything it it sends frequency through a red light looks like an Apple Watch. You know, but if you're having let me know lack of energy, you can dial in energy or if you're traveling, you can use the EMF protection or allergies, you can use the allergies, there's so many different frequency sets on there. And their main claim to fame was the Lyme frequency set. Back when they came out with it in 2016. It was called a wave one device. And it was funny because I dismissed it because I used to working with these 20 $30,000 frequency things, you know, technologies. And here this thing was being advertised for $1,500 at the time, and I was like, There's no way that thing works at $1,500. And it kept coming across my awareness. And so I was like, Okay, God, I get it. And then I chase down the CEO to have him on my podcast. And then the rest is history. You know, so 299 You know what it can do for people. It's ridiculous that 999 what it can do with the lime folks, I did an interview with an 11 year old who was completely bed bound from Lyme disease, tried all this other stuff, wore the Nikki for five months, and was back at school, we have her doing video where she's back to playing tennis again, like over and over and over. It's not a magic bullet. And I tell people all the time, you're still gonna have to work on the mindset, you're still gonna have to detox, you're still gonna have to change your your diet. But it really does help move the needle. And they've, they've put it together so brilliantly, like the first day. It's like one minute alive and like 30 minutes to detox. And the second day, it's two minutes alive, and 30 minutes of detox. And so it's slowly moving you up, because people in the beginning with this technology worse actually hurting. And even some of those end cast people can still get a little bit of a hurt from it. But we we try to start off really gentle, just to help move the needle on all aspects because sometimes that's what it takes to really help out people with these really complex cases.
Evan H. Hirsch, MD 44:48
Brilliant. Yeah, I'm excited about learning more about that. So people can learn more about you at the lime boss.com All right.
Heather Gray, FDN-P 44:56
Yep, and that's lime li M E, not lime. We're making a margaritas.
Evan H. Hirsch, MD 45:03
That's right. Thanks for that clarification. And when you go there, you've got a cool quiz. So it looks like is it Lyme disease? Take the free quiz. Yeah,
Heather Gray, FDN-P 45:12
absolutely. So many folks, it's still so under diagnosed misdiagnosed, you know, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue, Ms. You know, so many things, and it's just to help rule it out. You know, Dr. Horowitz made that quiz up. And it's, it's foundational, and it's, I love using it, because I'll have my clients, we take it every three months just to watch their numbers, you know, go down, and they can actually see, because a lot of times, people especially after a few months, when they start feeling better, they forget quickly how crappy they felt. And so to show that right there, like, they want to get over that and move on. And so and then they're like, they're hung up on this, like one little thing that I can't, you know, get to move, but I'm like, but look at all these five other things that we did move. Like, remember when you came in here, and your score was a 65? And now it's 22. And you're like, Oh, right.
Evan H. Hirsch, MD 46:05
Yeah, the human condition is one of adaptation. Right? We're constantly Yeah, we we forget that stuff pretty easily. Yeah. Um, and then you work with people one on one. Do you do groups, anything else?
Heather Gray, FDN-P 46:18
I hope to do groups at some point. But right now it's one on one. Awesome,
Evan H. Hirsch, MD 46:21
and people can work with you by going to the line boss.com
Heather Gray, FDN-P 46:25
Yep, that's a great place to start. And I've got a podcast, every across all the platforms. It's the line boss, but I usually start off with a really low cost, you know, 15 minute consults, just to see if we're a fit, right, because I'm, you know, my My way is not right for everybody. And I'd like to rule that out first, before we start spending too much money and time together.
Evan H. Hirsch, MD 46:46
Very important. Heather, thanks so much for joining me today. I really appreciate it. This has been awesome. Yay.
Heather Gray, FDN-P 46:53
Thanks for the opportunity. I so appreciate it.
Evan H. Hirsch, MD 46:57
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