Kasia Kines - Episode 15

Fatigued or EBV-infected?​

Today's Podcast

 

In this episode, Dr. Kasia Kines talks if you are Fatigued or EBV-infected.


Dr. Kasia Kines is Founder & CEO of Global EBV Institute, international authority on recovery therapy for chronic Epstein-Barr Virus infections & wellness expert. She is a Doctor of Clinical Nutrition, author of the Amazon best-seller “Epstein-Barr Virus Solution,” the online EBV Recovery Program, and the EBV Clinician Training and Certification Program, in which she utilizes a proprietary technique, methodology and approach to EBV she has developed. For 15 years she has served clients throughout the United States and globally in her virtual clinic. She helps those who struggle with complicated health issues, especially gastrointestinal and autoimmune, with EBV being the main focus in the last few years. Dr. Kines lives on San Juan Island in Washington with her family.

Timestamps


[00:02:26] Why Epstein-Barr? 

 

 

[00:09:29] What is it that drew you to Epstein-Barr?

 

[00:17:03] What do you think about the medical medium? 

 

[00:23:26] What does EBV do in the body? 

 

[00:26:32] How does somebody know if they have Epstein-Barr? 

 

[00:28:39] What do you do if you have Epstein-Barr virus?

 

[00:29:20] What do you think about testing?

 

[00:34:07] Should you go ahead and treat?

 

[00:34:15] Did you make recommendations for potential treatment?

 

[00:46:10] What is your protocol? How long does it typically take for you to see the changes that you want to see?

 

[00:48:18] What about when the bugs die? 

 

[00:50:19] Do you have a favorite die-off support when that happens? 

 

[00:51:00] How does Epstein-Barr cause fatigue?

 

[00:53:40] What is the ideal diet for somebody with EBV?

 

[00:56:55] Where can people find you?

 

[00:57:43] You also have a free gift for our community. Is that right?

 

Transcription


Evan H. Hirsch, MD: Hello, and welcome to the Fix Your Fatigue Podcast. Whether you can't get out of bed in the morning, your energy crashes throughout the day, or you're a biohacker looking to optimize your energy, productivity, and focus. This podcast is for you. I am Dr. Evan Hirsch. And I will be your host on your journey to resolving fatigue and optimizing your energy. And we'll be interviewing some of the top leaders in the world on fatigue resolution. Welcome.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: Hey everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Fix Your Fatigue Podcast. I'm so excited that you're here with me today. Today, I'm going to be interviewing my good friend, Dr. Kasia Kines.

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: Hello.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: Kasia Kines is a founder and CEO of Global EBV Institute, international authority on recovery therapy for chronic Epstein-Barr virus, infections, and wellness expert. She is a doctor of clinical nutrition, author of the Amazon bestseller Epstein-Barr Virus Solution. The online Epstein-Barr virus, or EBV recovery program and the EBV clinician training and certification program in which she utilizes a proprietary technique, methodology, and approach to EBV that she has developed. For 15 years, she has served clients throughout the United States and globally in her virtual clinic. She helps those who struggle with complicated health issues, especially gastrointestinal, and autoimmune with EBV being the main focus in the last few years. Dr. Kines lives on San Juan Island in Washington with her family. Doctor Kines, Kasia, my friend. Thank you so much for being with me today.

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: Hello Evan. It's my pleasure, Washington! Go! Go!

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: Go! Go! Washington!

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: Go! Washington

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: She's just up the road from me. I have to say that I have been a naughty Washingtonian. I have actually never been to the San Juan Islands.

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: I'll pick you off on that.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: Yes. So I'll have to come visit that would be lovely.

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: Yup that would be lovely. We'll have you.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: Wonderful. So let's dive in here. I'm super excited. Epstein-Barr virus is such a huge problem in people who are chronically fatigued. So I'm excited to learn from you and share you with my audience. So the first thing that I always like to ask people is about their story. So, why Epstein-Barr?

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: Well, you asked me the impossible question. I think we're going to laugh a lot today.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: Yes.

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: I'm looking at your laugh sign, so I can't help it.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: Yes.

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: Why? I think there's a couple of layers. First of all, it's been with us for on this planet for 1 million years, apparently. So it's older than us. And why is it hitting people right now as hard as it is? If you look at medical literature, we don't have much in terms of environmental toxicity, but there are studies on particular environmental toxins, which are more insidious in our life right now, as opposed to 50 years ago or 200 years ago. And so these reactivate the virus, and also the virus thrives in low nutritional status. So there are certain things that we are exposed to, when we're not, which has victim to, and this is our environment, but there's also the food industry, and we're victims of brain conditioning about what we eat and the quality of what we eat and the decreasing nutrient density of the foods that we eat. 

An apple today is not the same nutritional makeup of an apple exactly of the same size 50 years ago. People don't realize it.

 

So it's much easier for the physiology to start going down a little bit. And then at the same time, we have more in the environmental insult, like double, triple whammy. And then, on top of that in our environment, we don't have a happy life. We don't have fulfillment and we don't have connection. So if you have women who in other indigenous cultures have a tribe and division of jobs together in a village, a modern woman has to be a sex partner, a cleaner and made driver for the kids a cook all of this in one person. And something has to give so. So, if you combine the lifestyle and the pressures, and then the fact that Americans work more hours than people in Japan now and Japanese people were notorious for overworking, no, we're notorious. I'm from Poland. I used to have summers off, remember as a student, it's very different in the States. 

 

Different cultures, different pressures. There's literally something has to give. And if we don't have that backbone physiologically, or even on that physical level, when the body can maintain functions and not to and be run down, probably all these factors have something to do with the fog that we're just going in the wrong direction, getting sick. And the fatigue is one of the classic symptoms of that direction.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: Yes. My wife talks about the mental load. She tells me that I don't have to hold the mental load, which is true. All those things that you named. And so, it seems like sometimes the body is protecting itself by going into a bit of a collapse or a big collapse. Right? So that all of those things, which are so overwhelming, no longer have to be managed.

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: Yes, and sometimes, unfortunately for me, there's a different level because, really, my heart's desire is to help people with a deeper transformation of their lives, not just the viral load and so on. And sometimes some of the best healers on this planet that could be actually trapped in the corporate world or in a profession that is not serving them. And so the illness can start manifesting and they literally have to hit the wall in order to recognize that something has to change that this is not the way. And sometimes, the deep transformation is people literally change their lives. 

 

And finally, listen to that inner voice. And once they get the physicality back, when they get empowered to actually understand their body, they can then step out into the world and serve the way they were meant to serve. For me, that's the biggest success. That's the measure of success because we need different frequency on this planet. We need all the healing, we need all the support, and we need people to shine their lights. There's a lot of joy in it and laughter.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: That's right.

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: Yes. So I don't know, this is an interesting story, all this virus, all that fatigue,

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: Right? Yes. That's so important that transformation that we're able to provide. And I love the fact that you're coming at it from so many different aspects more than just the physical. I found that in my own journey when I had fatigue for five years, and I got over it is that, as I improved my mindset and improved my mindfulness, that the more that I did that it just helped me continue to elevate to next levels of success throughout my life. And so I'm so pleased that you're incorporating that as part of your program.

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: Yes. It has to be mindfulness because, for me, it's a degree of self-love. And coming back to the old, old issue that we're not good enough.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: Right.

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: And so you are good enough. You start taking care of yourself and paying attention and taking the time. And when people are in despair, and they really don't see the hope. I always tell people the only thing that your body wants to do is shine for you. If you give it a little bit, if you get out of it, if you really start giving it what it just needs, it's just going to shine for you. You will be surprised, that's all. And it puts the spark in people's lives. Like my body could shine for me. That's all it wants to do. Wow. There's a shift from my body has betrayed me. I don't know what's next. How many more immune disorders will I be diagnosed with? I have anxiety. I don't know what's going to happen to me. That's all wrong, wrong conditioning. That's not what we are.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: Right. I love that so much. And I can see how good you are with them. So let me ask you-

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: You and I, you and I.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: -yes. Let me ask you a little bit about your story. So what is it that drew you to Epstein-Barr? Why do you work with people who have Epstein-Barr virus?

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: I have an angel. I have a couple of angels, but one of the angels is one of my best friends from Poland, Marlena, whom I lost to multiple sclerosis a few days ago, a few years ago. I still can't believe that she's not here with us. And she fought for many years, and I couldn't help her. And I think I had some dreams about her and I was asking questions. I asked a colleague who was a medical intuitive about her death, what really, what it was. And she said it was Epstein-Barr virus. But even, even at that point, I really wouldn't have known what to, what to do her son. I remember I had mentioned in when she was still alive, and there wasn't really anything. 

 

I had the best training in the country anywhere I could get it, functional medicine, training doctoral program. And it was only in my doctoral program. I was very lucky because I had virology under Dr. Vasquez. And it was like an aha moment. Oh, viruses, this is what they do. There's nothing. And I think I'm just, I'm a messenger. And I feel incredibly lucky and fortunate that and it's the price is Marlena's death. Like that's how I feel. And I never wanted her death to be in vain. And so I think I've been led because the fact that Dr. Vasquez only taught this one for, this one class only once, never again. And I was in that group. And the fact that people are asking me about medical medium, a book at the same time, like what was my opinion? 

 

I had no idea. So I bought it, and I read it on the plane to a conference because I didn't have time to read. And the fact that you and I, as the longer we work clinically, the more complicated cases we have to some point at some point, we're doing everything right. We have amazingly committed clients or patients, but we hit the wall, and there's something that, and you were there. It's like, what the heck is that? Why are we not getting better getting through all the way? When I was reading that medical medium, I have specific people in mind that I used to work with. It's like, "Oh my gosh, this is what it was." And so basically I'm just open and because I'm open to receive and I keep asking, give me what I need. What is the next step? I just don't question. I didn't know I would write the book. I never, I had never written the book. I had no life. 

I had full clinic. I had, my husband was on me. Dr. Lipski, in my Ph.D. program, was on me. I gave my literature review to Izabella Wentz, and she emails me. When are you publishing? This is like publishing a book or what book? 75 pages, literature review. That's what it was. What book? They were all on me. Everybody was on me. And this is like 600 pages.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: What?

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: And it's so like a definite EBV Bible, that's what it is.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: Yes, I have it right over here.

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: Thank you so much. And I was able to write it so fast because I had all these years of experience, but my philosophy and what I had my, I had a love affair with gastroenterology, but also with environmental medicine and property diversification. So all those years of work, my philosophy, what I believed in, what I was teaching everyone, how I was loving when I started to do research on EBV, it was like a much in heaven. What are the odds?

 

This is exactly what, this is like my years in practice were years in training to get to this point, like literally, how does that happen? And then the book happened, and then the right people come into my life. And I remember I had a dream one night. It was way, way before all this happened. When I was standing on a stage, there was a room full, maybe like 50 chairs in rows. It was the light was a lot of light in that area with the chairs where they were all empty. The last year in the last row on the ride, Marlena was sitting and like smiling so happy as I was saying. And it's a magical story, and it's the story of loss, but now I wasn't sick myself. 

 

So that's what happened. And I think my job was when I started to see what I started to see with literature, with the community, I tapped into EBV community and social media. I started to see what their struggle was, and the medical medium was booming. And so there was that message on the left extreme here. And then there was medical community on the extreme right, and there was this ocean of nothingness, and you either were in this camp or in the other. And so when I was reading that book, all I was thinking instinctively, what can I verify? What if 50% is true? What can I actually, can I, a foundation for everyone? 

 

Doctors don't have time. Can I just create something as a clinical nutritionist like me can grab this book and run with it and like a person who is, can grab this book and read it and get on it and start getting better. No, can I create a foundation when it, that's like one-third of it is for medical doctors, and two-thirds is what they do with us. So that's, that was my job. Medical medium had a job opening the store of awareness. Somehow people go to the doctors', bang on the door, and I want to be tested for EBV. Hello, but then the doctor says, EBV is not relevant. Everybody has it. I'm not going to test it because it's a waste of time and your money. I'm not going to test it.

 

So like, how do we reconcile medical literature and then prove it in your clinical practice? How does it actually work? And so when I started to have the results, I was pinching myself, and I felt this was something special. And that's how everybody was telling me. You need to put it in the book. So that's kind of the story. And I am very lucky. I wish every clinician and practitioner like you, and we had a story, and many of us do that really fire us out. 

 

Like we, we just walk one step at a time and, and we just do what we're called to do. Like you did, except you had to get sick. You had to be one of those that you had to hit the, hit the wall instead of, to recognize like, okay, this is not the way. And now you're helping so many thousands of people, right?

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: Yes. I had to be hit over the head a number of times.

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: Stubborn, yes.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: Indeed. So you brought up some really great things in that. So let's talk about the medical medium. So what do you think about the medical medium? Can you kind of give a little summary of what his opinion is and how that differs from yours?

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: So, for example, I love his recipes, and yet I constantly have to spice them up. Like this is not really delicious really, but it's plant-based. It's medicine. It's information. Food is information. It's wonderful. He has all the right, the heart in the right place, and the right recommendation. Except, for example, he's not a nutritionist. So sometimes people take it to an extreme, and I have to make corrections nutritionally because they're not thriving. They go into an extreme with this or that. So I teach people how to balance, but he was on the right, he's on the right track. He makes a lot of claims that are not verifiable because it's from a spiritual world. So whether they are true or not, that was my job. I wanted to bridge it. I wanted to bridge it. I'm all about bridging, not criticizing.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: Nice.

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: Because not everybody has a, no people have different sensibilities, and religious sensibilities and some people don't appreciate this. And especially for the medical community. Sometimes this is a big conflict. So, my job was just to verify and look at the tracking in medical literature. And he says there's many instances where we don't have research proving that what he says is true. So I will be just paying attention. So, he's big, he has big claims, and big claims are exaggerated. And so you can have a claim that everything is caused by EBV, that Hashimoto is caused by EBV, as Hashimoto can be caused by your senior H pylori. So there's more for me. 

 

There's more gray area and less sensational area. But I think from his point he had a different job. His job was to really save this planet and open the door to awareness. And my job was to take that in food that put really like a foundation for medical community for all of us. So now, if people read his book and start eating this way and get better to a degree, now they can actually learn, study, understand, follow, and they have full recovery. And we can train doctors and commissions, and we can completely change the way that the virus is understood. 

 

So between me and him, I think there's like, we're starting to move that reality. And so, so without his book, I wouldn't have sat down. It's like, wait a second. I have to take a look at this because I got so excited. I was highlighting everything in that book that I had no concept, no, highlighting everything in that book.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: You do?

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: Yep.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: That's great. The sense that I get is that I believe a lot in superbugs, and oftentimes I'll see like combination of bugs. So sometimes there'll be a combination of Borrelia with Bartonella and Babesia. I call that [unintelligible 00:20:09] because sometimes you can't just get it then by going after one. But I wonder whether or not Epstein-Barr, because they're all swapping DNA with each other, right? So I wonder whether or not Epstein-Barr is kind of like the backbone. And I think that's what he was picking up where like maybe they're sitting on a bed of Epstein-Barr.

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: Yes.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: And that's kind of like the backbone, like I said, where it's holding a lot of these guys together.

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: Yes, I think so. I think you nailed it on the button. And then he also makes a claim that Lyme disease is not Lyme disease, actually misdiagnosed EBV. And I looked into it, and I found some research that could like kind of matches that. And then I don't work with Lyme, for example, but specifically, I say, I will not, I will not touch it, but I have been paying attention to different stories and individually to different people, what they have done to actually recover and how much of what they have to do is not so much Lyme disease protocol as it is actually antiviral work. 

 

So I don't know, I'm not going to touch that, but no, that's a big deal for him as well. I think this virus is the worst because it can cause cancer. It can cause autoimmunity, and there's correlations are like a big, bucketful a lot of them, but right now, they're specific cancer types, but they're looking into, they're looking into very common cancers like colorectal cancer or breast cancer. They're seeing very strong correlations. We don't have, we don't acquisition yet, but it's just because we need more studies. But the autoimmunity also there's lots of correlations, but there's also causations. There's seven. Most, some of the, these are most common autoimmune disorders, including celiac. 

 

When there's specific studies showing how one protein from the virus goes into the DNA area for autoimmunity, if you have that gene for celiac, this protein will turn it on, and celiac, diabetes type one, rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, multiple sclerosis, here we go. Juvenile idiopathic, juvenile arthritis, and an IBD. So Crohn's and ulcerative colitis are on that list rising. And there are, there's also localize, or there's a cross cases of chronic disease that actually were misdiagnosed EBV cases in medical literature, so as to come. So there is an enormous opportunity for medical community for us to actually look at it more seriously. It's a, it's a superbug, right?

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: Right.

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: It's a bug. It's been here for a million years. It's certainly a superbug.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: Yes. It really great opportunity for people to kind of pull back the curtain and take a closer look at EBV as a cause of a lot of these things. So let's talk then about some of the specifics of EBV. So it's a virus and so, and what does it do in the body? Give us some like basic preserves, more specifics.

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: So when it enters the body, it's typically a, it likes to get into the tonsils, pharynx, larynx then goes into the gut sometimes. The when and the target is to find B cells or T cells, mostly B cells, and an implant inside and then allow the B cells to continue cloning. During the initial period of time, two, three, four weeks, the virus is in the bloodstream, and it travels, and it looks for a condo to take residency. And so it's, and that's why let's say looking for DNA like PCR, I think looking for DNA, it oftentimes it's false negative because you're not going to find it in blood. 

 

That's not where it lives. It's going to live in your B cells somewhere in your tissue. So depending where it goes, it could be liver, it could be spleen. It could be your brain tissue. It could be your thyroid. There, you have Hashimoto's could be connected tissue, it could be in different places. Vagus nerve sometimes can be impacted by it. And that's where sick. And then the B cells are completely altered. Every cell has this kamikaze ability. If I'm infected, I'm going to commit suicide because I'm a danger. They have this, April tosses, right? That's what they do. 

 

The virus inside those cells, as the ability to turn it off, it also, it makes it impossible for the cell to signal to other immune cells that it needs to be terminated externally. So it becomes a little bit like cancer cell in perpetuation. It keeps cloning, and actually people don't understand, and medical community doesn't see it, that the virus actually realize in the host on this cloning for perpetuation, the lysing, when people react to that, it's just when those cells finally burst because the B cells we're manufacturing all, using the DNA in the cell, making the new viruses from that. They making RNA, and then when the young viruses, they called virus, they are ready, and there's particular trigger, environmental triggers, stress trigger. 

 

Those poor B cells, lyse, which is, they die because they burst open and all of these young virions spill out into the blood. It's like a highway, and now they're going to look for a condo. I'm going to go somewhere and live. Where's it going to be? It looks really good. I'm in the neighborhood. Let me go and find these cells in there.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: I spend warmth like on the beach. That's great. That's very helpful. So then how does somebody know if they have Epstein-Barr? What sort of symptoms do they present with?

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: Well, there's classic symptoms, and there are less classic symptoms. So, for example, people will tell me, well, I only have Hashimoto's. That's all I have. Like, yes. I don't have all these other symptoms. Yes. It's the classic are your symptoms are chronic fatigue, fatigue, fatigue, fatigue, fatigue. The kind of fatigue like latent fatigue, iron fatigue, or lead fatigue when the way people describe it. I can't explain to my husband that it's so hard for me to walk from my sofa in the living room to the kitchen. I just don't have the energy. It's very hard to explain it's this, this fatigue that is colossal like a blanket, that's the biggest one. Brain fog. 

 

When you think you're losing your mind because your cognition is going because sometimes there's a lot of inflammation and toxicity from the virus in the brain. And the virus creates a lot of oxidative stress, and that's flooding the blood and flooding the brain by their headaches. There's joint pain, achiness commonly the worst flu of your life, basically the worst flu of your life. And after that flu, you just never yourself. Maybe you have fevers or kind of subclinical fevers, rushes, buddy aches. I mean, this is just [unintelligible 00:28:05] nosebleeds vertigo, ringing in the ear, constantly neurological problems. I mean, laundry list, also autoimmune disorders, Hashimotos. Yes.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: Gotcha. Yes, definitely a laundry list.

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: Definitely.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: So then, if you've got that laundry list and you're trying to figure out, if you have Epstein-Barr virus, then what do you do? So you've got these symptoms pretty nonspecific, something's wrong? What do you do next?

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: People do research. People read. People try different things, right? So if you look at literature, the literature is clear. If you have idiopathic, idiopathic condition meaning doctors don't know what caused that suspect chronic EBV or the research also says. If a patient doesn't respond to therapy, and you don't know what to do, kind of a mystery, suspect chronic EBV. And so the golden standard would be to test really, wouldn't it?

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: Yes. So what do you, yes, what do you think about testing?

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: It's easier than people think, and that's the number one question I get. So I have a whole chapter in the book. We have a whole page on the website. On that page, we have a popup with 15 minutes of Facebook video and Facebook live when I was drawing and explaining things. There's this different complications of people making or not making certain antibodies, so false positives or what to expect from labs. But basically, the problem that I'm seeing between the medical literature and between what I see in experience when I review all these labs and how that corresponds to presentation and how people respond and recover. 

 

And so that's one reality. But what I see in clinical practice is not matching. So the way labs in medical club, medical practice are set up is they oftentimes test three antibodies. They skip early antigen, and early antigen is the recurring infection right now. The lysing is happening right now, or at least during the time when you test it. It's also short-lived. So if you miss it, you can miss it. And then you can miss diagnosed as a doctor, can miss diagnose your patients saying you don't have EBV, you had it in the past. I'll give you an example. 

 

One of my students was saying, "I have a client classic. I know it's EBV, everything matches, but she did the testing that early antigen was normal." And so the simple question was when did she test? January. When did this woman feel like the truck ran her over? When was that? Thanksgiving. By January, early on to the antigen normalized. So she missed that in testing. She tested a few weeks late. Does it make sense? Early antigen cannot be skipped. The other ones will be elevated. So yes, and this is just how the labs are tests that I'd set. And also, doctors believe that VCA IgM, the only IgM is the one that is, right now, you have it, but that's not true. It's a more reliable for the initial infection. It oftentimes doesn't increase enough. This is what I say, doesn't increase enough to show up when you have reactivation after reactivation. 

 

I have some cases when it is, it does spike up every time, every time a person tests. But that's unusual. Normally I expect that it's going to be normal. So this is where I think thousands of people fall through the cracks. And then I've had cases. Like I had a woman who went to her doctor, she did a lot of self-study. She had some unusual conditions, and she was not getting better. And she had an EBV and asked her favorite doctors. 

 

Like I went to the doctor because I trusted him. He was a family doctor. I knew he knew me. He said, look, could it be EBV, could I test it? He completely discarded it and did not, was not willing to test it. She walked for the next seven years. She spent thousands of dollars and continued knocking on doors. And that's when I feel medicine has failed people because it's such an easy thing to say, "Well, I don't know. Let's test."

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: Right.

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but let's test, but they don't know. They're going by old information, which is not what medical literature is. I'm sorry, I've studied it. And they just are not updated. That's why I had to write this book. I was so distraught. It's like somebody has to do it. And somebody has to do the right job. If I don't do it, my biggest fear was what if somebody writes a book about EBV, and it's not correct, and what am I going to do then? What I'm going to say that I have the responsibilities. I have to write it. So it's all in that chapter so people can dissect it, and there's different scenarios, irregularities in testing. So.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: And it's a great chapter. I definitely refer to it often. You've got those comparisons of those different graphs for how to do the interpretation, which I found to be very helpful.

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: Thank you.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: Yes. So then in terms of that testing, though, so let's say somebody misses the window, you don't have the early antigen, it's going to show up positive. Let's say somebody has a negative test, and they still have all these symptoms. Should you go ahead and treat?

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: I don't treat because I'm a nutritionist, so

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: Okay.

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: Well.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: Did you make recommendations for-

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: Yes.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: -potential Treatment?

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: So the thing is my approach came from medical literature and my experience, my clinic when I started to apply certain supplements and that, so I followed the research, and I found out that the biggest support we have that is antiviral against the virus, turning it off is actually single nutrient supplements. And they are well studied, and they deliver, and they multitask. So what I hear from medical doctors and these and functional doctors is frustration because they tried botanical medicine, maybe some maybe one antiviral medication, combination, and the focus is on building up the immune system. And I totally agree with that. However, that's not my protocol, and that's not my focus. 

 

My focus is, look. Immune cells are cells. They're living cells. They require nutrients. So if I have a budget and I only have $20 or $50 to spend, on a supplement, what would I tell that person to do? So based on everything I knew and the results, I was getting predictably, and that was based on the medical literature. I design, we have this loving name, EBV Jumpstart Bundle. And so I like to start my clients on it. I like to start my new patient groups on it. Like, let's just jump on that because it's predictable. And if EBV is what it is, it's going to start moving the needle within even three weeks. It's just not possible for the virus to sustain it. It's just not. It's predictable. The virus is pretty predictable, actually. 

 

That's the beauty of it. People are afraid but know it's predictable. And so we, so that's how I set it up. And so as we observe how people respond, if nothing happens within a month or two months, then I suspect it's either not EBV of we have complications, and the common complications when people cannot get over things over EBV either is mold. Molds is nursing when there's wifi. EBV is messy when there's my wifi. You have to turn it down or off. People are very sensitive.

 

And the virus is something that happens to the virus. It just, it gets worse. And now we know that the toxic molds becomes really aggressive and problematic for people because of wifi possibly as well. So you know this, and then you have heavy metals, and heavy metals resonate more with wifi as well. And now have you met those potentially, especially mercury potentially may aggravate EBV. 

 

And so, and then co-infections like you said, superbug, co-infections some so-called translocation is common when you have EBV, and maybe you have H. Pylori. And if you have dormant EBV, but H. Pylori is flaring up, then the H. Pylori can trickle into EBV reactivation, or maybe you have EBV reactivation, but you also are strep. So now you have EBV and strep reactivation or whatever. It's like, that's common too, so you may have co-infections. So that's harder. You have to figure it out. So these are the complications, and we walked through all of that in our online program because it's important. So you can have building blocks. You clean up all the aspects of your life, which is exactly what you train, and the bundle is an opening. And so for me, let's say one ingredient in the bundle is selenium. 

 

Selenium turns off the replication. It's like that, but also even 200 micrograms of selenium in a study showed reversal of Hashimoto's. It's an instrumental nutrient for thyroid and Hashimoto's too. And then you go deeper. Well, it's a co, it's a building block for glutathione. We can talk about glutathione about another time, but that's important. There goes the detoxification and liver, one little selenium. My take is, and so I have seven things lined up like that. And we then look for safety limits. How high can we go within safety limits when you have acute reactivated chronic acute situation when you are not functional. How high can we go within safety to start turning it down, turning it down, turning it off. 

 

And then we build on these. So in terms of botanical medicine, I love herbal teas. I love to add them because you have to drink. So every time you open your mouth, you have some more antiviral activity. And herbal teas also come with additional benefits. Like a lemon balm is great for stress and great for thyroid, but it's also antiviral. Hibiscus, yes, high in vitamin C, but it's also antiviral. And so it's like, suddenly you start cornering the virus, and you just hit it from different areas. Who do sleep, stress, supplements, herbs. Now you become invincible.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: Excellent.

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: Now, now the magic happens. So that's kind of my philosophy. And this is why we are building the new system. There was a functional doctor on Amazon who gave me a one-star, very critical review. And one of the things was she's completely ignoring the immune system. No, I'm not. I'm building the immune cells. If you look at immunoglobulin A, immunoglobulin, total immunoglobulin, immunoglobulin A and a G. These immunoglobulins, if you look at studies, there are nutrients that are needed to boost them. Guess what? I teach that to my students. If he, if your immunoglobulins are low, that's in your system, right? 

 

Here's how you boost them. If your secretory IGA is well, there's things you can. You need building blocks for these things. I'm sorry, and you need to digest, absorb, to assimilate these. So, I'm not focusing on botanical medicine to build your immunity because if you take it away, what have you built, right? And every time you open your mouth, every time you make a choice with food culinary, spices, and herbs, in the culinary herbs, [unintelligible 00:41:16]. Who knew if the list is too. So suddenly it gets really exciting because the tools that we have, there are so many that we have in the kitchen, we don't even know. And so it's quite empowering, actually.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: Excellent. Yes. I'm really glad that you kind of talked about addressing the infection even if the labs are negative. One of the things that I always tell people is that all of our labs are imperfect. If we're doing a serology test, which is looking at the immune system's reaction to something and that thing, or the heavy metals, chemicals, molds, and infections are modifying the immune system, then like sometimes all bets are off. So.

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: Yes.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: I think really great. Sometimes you get the diagnosis through the treatment or through the protocol, right? And so then you're doing this nourishment that you're talking about. And if you're seeing the results that can give you, or you're not seeing results, I can give you a lot of data.

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: Yes. It's always. I love the fact that you mentioned it because, for me, it's always like GPS. All data is good. And people sometimes say, I wasted my money. I did this lab in this. No, no, no, this is all good. This is our GPS. We're turning left region. This means this. And this means this. We can check this off our list. We keep moving. I had a woman who had very high antibodies to sideways, and we were doing great. We were correcting things, and she was doing so much better, but this was not budging. 

 

And I finally talked her into doing the mold test in the house. They found it. And this particular toxin, when I looked at studies, it was also responsible for triggering Hashimoto's, autoimmunity, and thyroid. And so, they actually moved out. They had a baby. They moved out of the house, and we mediated it. And so 50 plus percent of residential and commercial buildings in the States have mold.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: Oh yes.

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: And so, and then we have all this wifi around. So if that gets a little bit of a, we're a little bit in trouble, one of my colleagues who actually had molds said, I want to build a house. When I see all the pipes, nothing is hiding. I can see everywhere, no walls.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: Right. And if people see it, it's the tip of the iceberg. I mean, most of the time, they never see it. And it's still there. Yes.

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: It is terrible. Nobody wants to talk about it, and we hate when it happens. Like maybe it's wrong. Maybe it's false positive. Nah, it is hard. This is traumatic when yes. It's hard for people.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: Yes. We actually have a mold remediation coach on staff in order to walk people through that process.

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: I would love to collaborate and hire him, too, for my community, please.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: Yes. She's amazing. She's amazing. And it's a, it's such an important part of our program.

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: Yes. That would be very empowering. So it's a remediation coach.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: Yes. And she's also a functional nutritionist, and yes. So it's just, yes. Mold is such an important part. I had somebody on our call today. We had our bi-monthly live question, answer for people going through our program. And somebody said, how much of my problem is mold? How much of my fatigue is my is mold causing? And this is somebody who lives in Holland and like her levels were super high. Like her, mycophenolic acid was one of the highest that I've ever seen. It should be less than several hundred. And it was at 10,000. And I said this is around 90% of your total problem.

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: Yes.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: If people don't realize how much of an issue molds is.

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: No, no. I tell people if you have molds, no matter what we do with EBV, it's not going to botch. It's just not. There's just nothing we do. We're going to be mopping the floor. The faucet is running. We have to turn the faucet. There's no other way.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: Right. And the converse is true. When you treat mold, then a lot of these infections go away because all of a sudden, the immune system is available to actually do its work.

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: To do its work. Yes. Yes. We cohabit. We have more alien DNA that we have of our own cells.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: Right.

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: I don't know who's hosting who. Yes, exactly. Exactly. You got it.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: Excellent. So let's talk a little bit about your protocol. So how long does it typically take for you to see the changes that you want to see?

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: It really depends on this complication. So let's say I had two ladies started the program. I think within second it's very clearly it was EBV straightforward in each case. And individually, they literally emailed me on the same day. I'm not joking. It was hilarious because they were just elated there. I have my life back. I just, I can't believe it. This is just, this is all done. I am running even I sleeping, and my boyfriend says, wow. And so it really depends how fast people go. How many complications they are. How much they utilize the program because it's a line. And we have coaching calls once a month. So there's so much support there.

 

Everything is there. So I don't get to know the detailed stories from A to Z. I get to jump in and see where they are and troubleshoot and so on. But we have all these complications as bonuses so they can jump in and they need to so they have all the resources and hopefully, maybe a local doctor who's, or a remediation coach for molds. So they have some team. So sometimes it's a matter of two months, sometimes in the middle of half a year. 

 

Sometimes it's in the middle of a year. If it's more complicated. If they have [unintelligible 00:47:40] couple of that maybe, or they have celiac, and they don't know they do. And that has to be addressed. And the God has to be faith healed. No, there's all kinds of stories. But if it's just fatigue, that would be the first thing to do because potentially if they tried everything, this may be the, this may be the faucet that can be turned off. Yup.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: Okay, great. And what about when the bugs die? Do they end up having a Herxheimer reaction sometimes?

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: I Love the question. In one of my modules, I, two detoxification modules, one environmental and one internal, and I drill it in everyone. Please do not go through this reaction. You don't need die-off. It's not a healing crisis. It's a crisis. You don't need it. So we don't go off the virus in terms of killing. We don't do that. That's too, too aggressive. We turned it off. We immobilize it because you can kill as much as you want. We're always going to have this virus in us. It's not possible. 

 

And if you were able, let me tell you if you are able one day to kill magically, every single, every single virus in your body, you're going to get it back because you're not in a Bible. Somebody will kiss you. And we have so many spouses. I had a chronic EBV. My husband doesn't understand me. Husband doesn't have EBV infections.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: Right.

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: But they have intimacy. They've had sex over the years. How is that possible? That kiss?

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: Right.

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: So yes, I, I'm not into killing, and in functional medicine, sometimes we really want to kill too much. And it's all about terrain. Just like you said, if your immune system has the ability to do what it needs to do most of the time, it will also shine for you. It will just step in, and you won't even know it like you are. We don't know that. Right now, if I was like listening, I would hear the immune cells doing the job, repairing, gleaning some pathogens. We're not supposed to hear or know about this, but it's happening right now, right?

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: Right. Yes. And so is there, do you have a favorite die-off support when that happens? What do you like to do?

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: Slow down, cut supplements in half, stop running, whatever you're doing. Just stop. Think slow down, cut in half, rest. Don't continue. That's the bottom line.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: Gotcha. Slow and steady wins the race, I say.

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: Going steady wins the race, and they, and then you become invincible and empowered, and you know exactly what to do, and that's the freedom. That's the road of freedom.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: Yes. Excellent. So a couple more questions as we kind of wrap up here. So how does Epstein-Barr cause fatigue?

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: It creates massive amounts of oxidative stress-free radical damage, avalanche all over. Mitochondria, your brain spills over everywhere. And also, if you kill it like you have dead debris, that's very toxic. That's going to also create havoc. If people like monolaurin Lauricidin people use that, that actually kills the virus. I don't like to use that.

 

That's not part of my original protocol. For example, I don't like for me, it's not worth it, too much pain. And not enough value otherwise. It doesn't have the nutrients that we can see that at the same time. So anyway, what was the question?

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: You did great. It was a, it was how does EBV cause fatigue?

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: Yes. So that's the oxidative stress, and then people can try a variety of diets. But the most important takeaway from this process is, please provide as many antioxidants as possible because that's what we have. That's how we wired. We have antioxidants from plants. That's what they do after plants create those antioxidants to protect themselves. And when we eat those plants, we have the benefit we gain, and certain plants are better about antioxidants. And then we have all these antioxidants that are antivirals. Selenium is an antioxidant. Basically, my protocol is basically very specific kinds of antioxidants. 

 

So depending on what you have in the pantry, in the kitchen, in the supplement pantry, focus on antioxidants. That is and the same, if you are a runner, you probably know that before and after you should have more antioxidants because running creates so much more antioxidation in the body, right? Most of the runners die of cardiovascular events were there in there because they run so long, there's so much oxidative stress. There's not enough. They can't eat blueberries. They can load up on antioxidants. Why are they running, right?

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: Right.

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: We're not designed for that. So just keep it simple and focus on that. And so, plants matter. That's where it is. Good whole foods foundation.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: So that leads perfectly into my next question, which is what is the ideal diet for somebody with EBV?

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: We just talked about it.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: Yes.

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: Yes. And then, of course, avoiding bad fats because that's, peroxidation oxidative stress as well. Old fats, bad fats, fried fats. The interesting thing is there's one more thing that I'm going to say. Don't go into fast food just because there is something called NF-kappa B. It's an inflammatory marker. It's like a little protein, and EBV likes to hijack on NF-kappa B and use it for application. So the more NF-kappa B you have, the more replication you will have, the more fatigue you will have, right? And there was a study on NF-kappa B. 

 

There was one, like a, one big junk food meal, breakfast. Don't remember what the ingredients were, but it was, it increased NF-kappa B by 150% for two hours. And people that have EBV will tell you if I eat something like that, I will feel so much worse because you actually providing substrate for EBV to replicate, and it's going to grab it. So, yep. So you go away from the junk food, and you go into more whole foods, plant-based, more plants, fruits, and vegetables. Fruits are amazing. People are afraid of them. He can't tolerate food. 

 

So you have to heal your gut. It's not sustainable to live without them and limiting them. I think it's a disservice. I think we're cornering ourselves going far far too much astray from just foundational whole foods. That's where it is. So I give people permission to enjoy fruits, colorful, delicious, sweet fruits, lots of fiber.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: Excellent.

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: And by the way, fiber is what will feed your good bacteria in your gut. Good bacteria will take this fiber, eat it, poop it out. The poop of your good bacteria is what feeds your colon and then goes into the bloodstream and actually feeds your T cells. And your T reg cells are like a Superman of your immune cells. If you want to build your immune cells, you need fiber to feed. Yes. You know what? It's stretching a fatty acid, but who cares? It's just, imagine that good bacteria are happy because they have fiber. 

 

That's what they eat, so you need to give them the thinner, and then I'm going to poop it out. And that's your immune meal for your T reg cells and the T reg cells. They can even arrest your T17, which is, and an immune cell that can trigger our immunity. That's going to cut you on your way home. So.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: Brilliant.

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: Yes. Pretty, pretty amazing. The way we're designed.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: Yup. As nature intended.

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: As nature intended.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: Yes. So great. So where can people find you?

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: We are fully aligned. So EBV online. Okay. What is it?

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: ebvhelp.com.

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: ebvhelp.com is a help, H-E-L-P. That's a great resource because then you have a link to our book, my book, then you have a link to the EBV recovery program. You have some blogs. You have a lot of pots because you have a lot of resources that are free, and you can find that program online. Program also more like closer one on one coaching, longer programs. Yes. Everything is on EBV Help. That's easy.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: And we'll put all the links below this video so that everybody can get access to that. And then you also have a free gift for our community. Is that right?

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: Yes. Do you remember what it was? I think I knew what it was.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: Yes. It says gift for readers.

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: Yes. So when people buy the book, I have like a two, three-minute video that we did in a grit gluten-free section of a health food store to just explain what to avoid in the gluten-free section because there's a lot of miss noise and there's a lot of marketing and some things are not working. And then, so that's one very practical even I love it. And then the other one is actually a very big, like a serious ebook on microwaving. It was very hard to find research, but I finally have it mapped out. 

 

I have some alternatives, and how do I make tea? What can you do if you don't have microwave? How to heat foods and what actually research has shown in different countries over the decades? And how specific things are related to EBV can be detrimental cause possibly by microwaving? This is not information that you can get readily anywhere. So it's a big one. So if you still using microwave, you want to read that.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: Great. Cut it out. You're still using a microwave. Cut it out. Well, thank you, Dr. Kasia. It was really such a pleasure getting to hang out with you today.

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: Oh, my pleasure.

 

Evan H. Hirsch, MD: I think you provided a ton of knowledge, and so people, if you've got Epstein-Barr virus if you think you do, definitely check out Dr. Kines.

 

Dr. Kasia Kines: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. My pleasure. Thank you for having me here.

 

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